[00:00:00] Daniel: Mhm. Hey there, Spacemakers. Welcome back to our podcast about making space for a meaningful life by doing less, not more. I'm Daniel Sih, your host, joined by my Spacemaking partner in crime, Matt Bain. We're exploring the fracturing of our attention and how to reclaim your focus. A special thanks to our sponsor Bulk Nutrients for supporting our journey to a more focused and intentional life. 

[00:00:28] Daniel: They not only provide quality value for money supplements, but also invest in the health and wellbeing of our communities.  

[00:00:37] INTRO VOICE: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.  

[00:00:40] Daniel: Hi everyone. This is Daniel Sih. Welcome back to The Spacemakers. Uh, if you've been following, I'm a productivity trainer and author. I'm a producer. 

[00:00:48] Daniel: I'm with my good friend, Matt Bain, the other space maker. Welcome, Matt.  

[00:00:52] Matt: Hey, thanks Dan. Great to be here. Hi everyone.  

[00:00:54] Daniel: Yep. And we are covering in this season, the fracturing of our attention, how to regain our [00:01:00] focus in a world which is kind of vying for our mind. And today's episode, we’re focusing on doing the reps, basically giving attention to what we need to give attention to. 

[00:01:10] Daniel: The idea that our attention is like a muscle and if we use it, it grows. If we don't use it, you know, it can be distracted. And so how might you do the reps and focus your mind on things that really matter? How do you build habits in your life to think clearly, uh, and to invest in relationships, to have a bit of silence and, and deep thought basically, how do you, um, create habits and reps around the things that align with your bigger why. 

[00:01:35] Daniel: So that's what we're talking about today. Um, I'm excited about this episode as usual. Oh, I'm looking forward to it. Very much so. So let's remind people where we are in this season. We have been going through a framework to help people think about how attention works and then obviously retrain their attention. 

[00:01:49] Daniel: So, uh, step one of the framework is about defining your greater yes.  

[00:01:55] Matt: I go as far as to say it's like defining slash perhaps like, um, discovering [00:02:00] your, your greater yes. So yes, this is, um, working out through a process. So we had a couple of suggested exercises that we ran through, um, a process that you run through to discern, to discover what I suppose is most important and valuable about your life that will influence or dictate where you then focus and direct your attention. 

[00:02:19] Matt: And once you've determined that, it's gonna be so much easier to say no to the smaller distractions.  

[00:02:23] Daniel: Yeah. if you don't know what your bigger yeses are in your life because you haven't given the time to think about it. Well, then it's very hard to. Yeah. Say no to all the small things, right? Yeah, that's it. 

[00:02:30] Daniel: Yeah, that's our first step. Uh, the second step is about reducing the distractions. So, shifting your digital environments to take away some of that kind of noise.  

[00:02:39] Matt: Yeah, yeah, that's it. And we went through some pretty specific, uh, suggestions around how to do that, particularly with our phones.  

[00:02:45] Daniel: Yeah, yep. And also MS Teams, uh, looking at emails. 

[00:02:48] Daniel: We've looked at the workplace context and removing distractions as a team, and then also reducing it as an individual. And the last one is filling the void, filling the void, filling the void. So once you've made some [00:03:00] space by shaping your digital environments, once you know what you want to achieve with your attention, well, then obviously you need to do something about it. 

[00:03:06] Daniel: So we're going to talk about this in the next two episodes as we round off this season, essentially how do you build habits and practices in your life around your greater values, your greater sense of purpose and why, so that you can habituate something, can do the reps and rebuild your attention muscles. 

[00:03:21] Matt: Yeah, that's it.  

[00:03:22] Daniel: Okay, so attention is like a muscle. And if we do the reps, and if we practice concentrated effort, well then we get stronger. And obviously if we fill our mind with, you know, mindless scrolling and short form video, well then that will also shape our mind in a particular way. Uh, So I've always thought about the importance of habits and routine and the value of it. 

[00:03:43] Daniel: Now I know that people like James Clear have written some great books and, you know, put the science of habits in front of us, which is great. I'd recommend that book amongst others. Uh, but that's Atomic Habits, isn't it? Atomic Habits. Yeah. Yep. And the first, the first time I really started to think through this idea of, you know, what he [00:04:00] calls atomic habits, I suppose, small insignificant actions that you do on a repetitive basis that change your life is when I was reading Stephen Covey's uh, you know, I was reading First Things First, uh, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. 

[00:04:11] Daniel: He really is one of the founders of productivity and I really kind of respect his work. And so this is about 14, 15 years ago. I was a physiotherapy, well, manager at the time, but I'd only just become that. So I'd been a clinical physio for a decade working in various fields, but basically working with clients, you know, treating people. 

[00:04:29] Daniel: Uh, and then I got a role. a bunch of different services, so 17 health sites across Tasmania, uh, and it was only a deputy role and then I moved into a management role, but I was a bit of, I was a bit of a pig in mud. I loved, I loved the challenge and I think leadership and probably leadership more than management, but it works for me. 

[00:04:47] Daniel: Uh, but I also didn't know what the heck I was doing and I, I felt very much out of my depth. Uh, it was also a super busy time of life cause I had a young kid, uh, so one baby, I think we might've even had, I was second on the way. I [00:05:00] think I was finishing or building off a house at the time and you know, I was doing heaps of volunteer work with my church. 

[00:05:05] Daniel: So I just had heaps on. Uh, and I went away on holidays to the place where we always go as a family, which is a Picaninny on the east coast of Tassie. Nice. Beautiful place. I've written about it in my book. And, uh, I read this book and, uh, Covey basically proposes a question that is really worth reflecting on and it just, it was like an aha moment. 

[00:05:25] Daniel: I'm like, this question is, is the one I have to be giving my attention to right now. Uh, so let me read the question. Well, it's kind of two parts. Uh, the first one is, what is one small practical action that you can do on a regular basis that will make a profound difference in your personal life? And the second is basically the same. 

[00:05:43] Daniel: What is one small practical action you could do on a regular basis, uh, that would make a profound difference in your work life. And that's it. I reflected on those questions. I wrote in my journal, uh, Picaninny's got this beautiful beach, so I, you know, I'd walk for an hour and, you know, every few days and, and I [00:06:00] just started to think, you know, if I was to put one thing into my crazy busy life that would help solve the problems and pain points I'm experiencing, what would that be? 

[00:06:10] Daniel: And so I identified there were two things, you know, one for work and one for life. The pain point for work was I just didn't know enough. Like I was really out of my depth. As a physiotherapist, you learn anatomy and kinesiology and you learn kind of communication, but you don't learn how to do change management or how to organize yourself. 

[00:06:28] Daniel: And so I knew I needed to read more. I didn't want to do formal study. I just had to read to get just in time learning, to learn about productivity and change management, leadership management, uh, all that kind of stuff. And I just, I'd stopped reading because I was too busy. And for personal life, I basically wanted more time with friends. 

[00:06:47] Daniel: Because, you know, I'm a tasky person, when I get busy and overwhelmed, I kind of withdraw a bit. And I was like, oh, you taught me this term, you know, the idea of having at least a minimal viable product with [00:07:00] friendships, so that you can't turn around in 20 years and say I've neglected my friends and now I'm going to try to be a great mate. 

[00:07:06] Daniel: So I definitely wasn't maintaining a minimal viable product of just like my good friends. So I thought I just have to catch up with my mates a little bit more regularly in a realistic way. So, they were the problems I tried to solve and so I thought what simple habits would get me there and I ended up with two habits. 

[00:07:21] Daniel: So, one, I needed to read for one hour, maybe two hours a week around productivity, around learning, leadership, you know, pull out some books, uh, and for my personal life, I needed to catch up with friends in a scheduled regular way, I don't know, maybe four, five, six, seven times a year, something like that. So, nothing too onerous, but certainly something that was regular. 

[00:07:45] Daniel: Uh, and then I had this great idea of bundling. I didn't know the term back then, but bundling is the idea that if you have a habit you want to implement in different domains of your life, let's say the, the domain of learning or the domain of relationships or the domain of [00:08:00] spirituality or finances, you can bundle a habit if you're smart and actually kill two birds with one stone, like, you know, going for a walk with a friend, therefore you get relationships and you get to exercise. 

[00:08:10] Daniel: So I thought, how do I bundle this into one habit? And I end up thinking, well, let me start a book club. And so, uh, I started a, we called it like the geeky men's book club. And basically we met four times a year. Uh, it was on a Friday night. We'd have whiskey, drink beer, eat food, and talk about one book related to business management, productivity, leadership, change management, et cetera. 

[00:08:32] Daniel: Uh, the guys helped me pick books. So we did that together. You were part of that group. Yeah. You were part of that group all those years ago. And we did it for about, I don't know, 12, 13 years. And we did it for a long time. We read a lot of books. And we read a lot of books, like for a year. But if you multiply that by 10, you know, it's a hundred books and I'm just joking. 

[00:08:48] Daniel: Um, so, uh, it was a simple way of both connecting with people, you know, I wanted to connect with in getting to know people I didn't know. So, you know, the guys brought their friends and so I got to know other people [00:09:00] who are in a similar stage of life. They were professionals, they were needing to learn more in different fields. 

[00:09:05] Daniel: And so I kind of had that natural connection. Uh, and, and because I had to read a book, well, it forced me to start to read. And that accountability led me to enjoy reading. I think my attention started to become more capable of reading again. And so it kick started both of the habits. In terms of the outcome, I built a great friendship with a guy called Tim Hines, who we heard from a few episodes ago. 

[00:09:27] Daniel: And, uh, we decided what if we actually make a business out of this, and we started Email Ninja, which was a training course, and it kind of started to take off. Another guy in the book club said, well, this is so good, this Email Ninja training course, I'll get my guys to do it. And so we ended up getting a big contract, and it was such a big contract, we had to leave our paid jobs, our real careers, like physiotherapy. 

[00:09:46] Daniel: And uh, and so I ended up starting a business, Spacemakers, again from book club. The guys after a while said, you know, these ideas that you keep talking about, they should be a book. And so I thought I'd write an ebook, and it ended up being Spacemaker, [00:10:00] which won a heap of awards and got me a TED Talk. Uh, and obviously you and I are here today talking about some of the stuff we started talking about probably 15 years ago in book club. 

[00:10:09] Daniel: Yeah. One simple habit, uh, meet four times a year, have a book club, and read for like an hour a week. and it killed a whole lot of birds with, you know, one stone, uh, so efficient, so efficient. I know I've never had to do another habit again. Uh, that's probably a bigger story than I expected. I never thought that would come out of just one simple habit. 

[00:10:30] Daniel: I just wanted to solve a problem, which was, I didn't know enough for my job and I didn't have any friends, but, um, that's simple repetitive habits, right?  

[00:10:38] Matt: Yeah. I'm really glad that we had like the backstory episode.  

[00:10:41] Daniel: Did I tell it accurately from your perspective?  

[00:10:43] Matt: Yeah, I think that was a, that was, yeah, that was historically faithful. 

[00:10:46] Matt: Um, so small, repetitive. Uh, once more, uh, repetitive steps. That's another way of just saying habit, right?  

[00:10:52] Daniel: It is, yeah. And I didn't, I didn't, I mean, of course I, I knew the term habit, but I suppose what James Clear has done, you know, with his graphs, that if you do a 1% habit and do it regularly, you know, if [00:11:00] you go from doing one pushup to two pushups to three pushups, if it actually creates exponential gains over time. 

[00:11:06] Daniel: Yeah. Uh, I suppose what Kobe's question did was give me that experience without the theory. Mm-Hmm. That if you simply find a, a smart habit that addresses a problem that you have and even better if you can bundle it so you can get a few domains, you know, attached to the same habit, uh, then maybe one or two habits can truly transform your life and in our case, transform your attention. 

[00:11:30] Daniel: Because if we're going to regain our attention and fill the void. Um, having maybe turned off notifications, giving ourselves a bit of space. But if you want to then, you know, build relationships, if that's what your bigger why is, or if you want to, you know, invest more in learning or invest in spirituality or even, you know, get better at making money, but in a smart way, like whatever your goals are, it has to be habit based. 

[00:11:54] Daniel: Otherwise, it generally doesn't work. And so it's that habit, which is about doing the reps, uh, if you're smart about making [00:12:00] money. Thank you. Uh, small, small changes to recapture attention. 

[00:12:01] Matt: Uh, just to try to pull all that together, what are you saying is that really it's almost like a two step process. If I'm interested in regaining my focus again, and minimizing digital distractions, being able to fill that void with something that's more meaningful. 

[00:12:17] Matt: You know, help discover my great yes step one, it's a good place to start by asking myself that question. What's one small repetitive thing that I can do and that'll, that'll provide the greatest payoff.  

[00:12:28] Daniel: Definitely. And even broaden that it's just a good place to start by. having deep thought, like taking time out to think about how you want to live intentionally, whether you answer that particular question or a different one, but it has to start with some intentional reflection, right? 

[00:12:42] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. It does. Step one. Step one. And then step two is once I've identified, like once I've started to answer that question, then start implementing it regularly. Yeah.  

[00:12:49] Daniel: And to try to, to try to implement it in a way which isn't change the world. Yeah. Move, move to the other side of the world. Start a book club. 

[00:12:56] Daniel: Start a book club. And for [00:13:00] me that, that was small actually. It felt small to meet four times a year. Yeah. Uh, and to read, you know, an hour a week didn't seem overwhelming for me, but, but whatever it is to start small in a way that your habit is predictive of the outcome you want to get to. And it's also tangible enough to get started. 

[00:13:20] Matt: Yes. Yeah. That's good. Yes. I can start right away. You can tick it off. You can get it done. It's taking you in the right direction. Yeah, absolutely.  

[00:13:25] Daniel: And if you do that, well then you can get to where you want and you can start to recapture your attention by doing the reps. Yeah, that's good. So speaking of reps, we were thinking that it'd be a great chance to talk with a friend and sponsor of the show, Jess Crowley, who's the general manager of Bulk Nutrients. 

[00:13:41] Daniel: I've done some coaching with Jess and she's an amazing leader. She's taken the company from being, you know, really a small startup to more than a hundred people with a big influence around Australia. They really are one of the leaders in providing, you know, quality, but also affordable, uh, protein powders and supplements and vitamins across Australia and [00:14:00] beyond. 

[00:14:00] Daniel: Uh, and yet we had a great conversation about how she has been wrestling with deep work and her attention. Uh, so look, we thought we'd just give you this small segment where she talks about not to do lists. She talks about what it means to kind of pay attention and, and help others pay attention as she's gone from being a small to a large company. 

[00:14:18] Daniel: Uh, and it's just great to hear from Jess as a sponsor of the show because I know that they, they really value this message, which is why they've partnered with us. And you can learn a lot from her leadership. Welcome, Jess. Thank you. Yeah. And look, it's so good to have you here. I know that when I talked about starting a podcast about the fracturing of our attention and why we can't concentrate. 

[00:14:38] Daniel: I mean, you're excited because I mean, I know Bulk Nutrients supports a lot of different groups in helping the health and well being of people. People, not just in Tassie, but also around Australia.  

[00:14:49] Jess: Yeah, that's right. And I think, uh, one of the things that's key for us is obviously habit building around training is probably really common in our industry. 

[00:14:57] Jess: So, a lot of people set [00:15:00] really good routines around going to the gym or doing the exercise or they find it much more successful when they do. Um, but what I've really noticed as our company's grown and we've started to get really big, uh, is it's really hard to work around all the other distractions that are coming along with being productive. 

[00:15:16] Jess: Now, we work in a, in a really sort of value driven part of the market. So, staying productive and efficient is actually really key to us because, um, you know, our mission is to deliver supplements that are really cost effective. And you can only do that if you've got a lot of your systems in place and you continue to be really productive. 

[00:15:32] Jess: And I guess as we've grown, it becomes much harder. Um, in a lot of ways, when you, when you, we started with sort of five or 10 people and now we're over a hundred, um, to make sure that you're still staying really productive as you grow.  

[00:15:45] Daniel: Yeah, definitely. And look, I wanted to have a conversation with you, not just because you're a sponsor, although I very much appreciate, uh, the support of Bulk Nutrients in this podcast, but to hear your thoughts about, you know, how do you actually focus and concentrate yourself as [00:16:00] a leader? 

[00:16:00] Daniel: Uh, and also, you know, leading others in your team, like you just mentioned. And look, what, what's worth mentioning is, I mean, in the time that you've been heading up, uh, Bulk Nutrients as the general manager, it has grown enormously, hasn't it?  

[00:16:12] Jess: It has. It's, it, and it's much bigger than we ever expected. So, you know, we started out as being our owner, started the business just as a sole trader himself. 

[00:16:20] Jess: Um, and we, we really never expected it to be this big. Um, we knew that, well, we hoped that it would resonate really well with the customer base, but that we probably underestimated the size of that customer base in Australia, um, and how that would continue to grow over the years. And so when we came into it, probably what's been key for us is a lot of what worked for us when we were small, doesn't really work for us now that we're big. 

[00:16:43] Jess: And I would also say, um, as you talk about a lot, the options in terms of what is available across all the different apps and, uh, all the different notifications that you can be receiving and all the different ways to communicate across teams, in theory, are all really great for [00:17:00] improving communication. 

[00:17:00] Jess: But actually, what we're finding is it ends up with just a huge amount of distraction because we've got teams, we've got email, we've got live chat on our website, um, you know, the way that customers want to engage with us is across a whole different, you know, variety of mediums. when we first started, it was literally email. 

[00:17:17] Jess: That was it. Email and a phone call maybe. Um, but now if customers can contact you across WhatsApp, Facebook, Instagram, you know, and then you've got to be across all that as teams, but then also you've got other work that you want to get done. Um, it, it is really interesting, I think, how I feel potentially that a lot of these apps developed to increase productivity actually end up just making us quite scattered and distracted. 

[00:17:40] Daniel: Yeah. So they all have some type of value. You know, Cal Newport talks about, uh, any value apps, meaning that every app or product has some value. But the question is, what's the cost of adding that in terms of your attention and focus and the integration and the distractibility. So you and I have worked both individually in kind of a leadership [00:18:00] coaching capacity and I've been able to come in and have a chat with some of your teams. 

[00:18:04] Daniel: Before I ask you about your own experiences, I do want to say that I'm, I'm always amazed at how good a leader you are. I know that's a very un-Australian thing to say, uh, but you, you both have, you have this very humble way of going about creating a very successful company. You have, uh, I've seen your teams and you've got this incredibly, incredibly good team. 

[00:18:25] Daniel: tight, helpful, kind of caring culture, but also the systems to protect people and allow you to expand. Uh, so, you know, you come across very humbly, but a lot of the success and growth has certainly been part of your time together. And so I think we can learn from, this is why I wanted you on the show. 

[00:18:42] Daniel: That's essentially what I'm saying, that we have something to learn about the way in which you lead and the way in which you help others to focus. So, um, maybe let's talk about our coaching briefly. What is it about the message of making space for a greater yes that resonated and how did [00:19:00] you live that out practically? 

[00:19:01] Jess: I think one of the things is particularly with my sort of, I guess, my innate desire and the way that I like to work. So I'm quite relational and I quite like that sort of engagement with people. But I was starting to identify that perhaps my, my need for engagement or my desire to do that is actually at times quite distracting for other people. 

[00:19:18] Jess: And then, Also, potentially what I needed to get done, I was finding more and more so that with the increasing number of people, perhaps in teams and the growth of teams and the complexity of systems as they grow, I was finding I could do less and less of those things that I knew that I really needed to do, but I wasn't able to get to them. 

[00:19:37] Jess: And so for me, it was a bit of a balance of coming to that point where you start going, I'm starting to feel a bit overwhelmed across what I feel like I should be doing or need to be doing for the continued success of the company and what I end up. actually doing, and also knowing and understanding about myself that potentially I'm allowing myself to procrastinate or lean in towards those things that are a bit more fun and engaging and doing less of [00:20:00] that work that's perhaps less visible but is more important over time. 

[00:20:04] Jess: And so a lot of that, um, sort of strategic deep thinking work, you can't really see it in the short term. Um, and so there's something about getting value from those things where you can see when you pack parcels, if you do 500 parcels a day, you're like, look at that, I did 500 parcels, you know, but if you're doing some, I guess, thinking about your strategy or some, some deep work that is going to benefit the business in a year or two or three or longer, you can't sort of sit back and say 

[00:20:30] Jess: Look at what I did. And so, and I was, when I came to you, I was coming to that point of going, I'm starting to just feel really overwhelmed. And I remember when we did, um, in some of our masterclass work, um, when one of the things was write everything down, get it out of your head and write it down. And myself and one of the other members in the group were like, actually, now we feel really overwhelmed because when you see it written down, it does feel quite overwhelming. 

[00:20:53] Jess: But as you rightly pointed out. without writing it down, it's still all sitting in here. So, it's still hanging over us. And so, [00:21:00] it has been a little bit for me, that mindset shift of going, writing it down actually isn't bringing it into being. It's just acknowledging that it's there hanging over me.  

[00:21:08] Daniel: Yeah, we're not adding commitments to your plate, but what we're doing is we're externalizing them and helping you to come to grips with the reality of what you've committed to, so that you can start to make wise, helpful decisions about what you pay attention to and what you get off your plate. 

[00:21:20] Daniel: Yes.  

[00:21:21] Jess: And I mean, one of the really key things I remember saying to you was that, So to me, that's been really strong too, because actually saying, no, I won't do that, or I acknowledge I can't, um, or I don't have the time to do it now, um, and seeing that as a real positive, as opposed to seeing it as a letting someone down or should I be able to do this? 

[00:21:40] Jess: Um, has actually been great and I mean, I'm, I quite like writing things down. So even though I have that a lot of those digital systems, I still can't, for me, it's not quite as valuable as having that written down to do this and also that written down what have I said no to and that's been really strong for me because at times, you know, of course, things just continue to get pushed down your list or you don't end up doing them. 

[00:21:58] Jess: But now I'm getting better at [00:22:00] going, well, if I've pushed that down a few times, is it actually something that should be on the no?  

[00:22:04] Daniel: Yeah. So there's your not to, your not to do list or your not to do now list. So that you're separating what really matters from what doesn't, which is part of managing your attention. 

[00:22:12] Jess: Yeah. And I think it's, it's been funny because as we were small, I think taking every opportunity that came up was really important for the company, you know, it's how we got in front of people. It's how we took chances to get where we are. But again, it's that thing where you get to that tipping point and it's no longer working for you anymore because the fact we say, if we say yes to everything, we just do a hundred things at one percent, um, rather than going, let's do 10 and that's been a bit of a shift culturally for us because. 

[00:22:37] Jess: The, the real positive about having a strong team and that has been there for a long time is that we know each other really well. We know the company really well. The flip side is, is perhaps we're still working on models that we developed 10 years ago and we haven't really sort of updated them based on the fact that now we're not 10 people in a small shed. 

[00:22:54] Jess: And for some of us, it's a really easy switch over and for some of us it's not.  

[00:22:58] Daniel: I love that idea that, you know, when an [00:23:00] organization doubles in size, you have to radically transform everything you do. Uh, yeah. And so on the one hand, you went on a journey to think, okay, I have strengths in relationships. 

[00:23:08] Daniel: You're great at relationships. You're great at connecting. You're great at having an idea and giving stuff a go. Uh, but with the bigger size of your company, you needed to put in some rigor around focus, concentration, deep work, maybe systems that allow others to follow that lead. And then we've done some work with your team to help them get their inbox to zero. 

[00:23:26] Daniel: To start thinking about when do you use Teams, when do you turn off notifications, what might your communication channels be like. So I suppose creating some systems in your leadership teams so that everyone can have a sense of concentration while they're doing all the other distracting communications. 

[00:23:40] Jess: And we're quite good at keeping each other accountable in a really sort of positive, fun way too. So, you know, there's quite a lot of you know, you should be, you'd be responding to me now or like, you know, we can, you know, in a nice way. We use a lot of memes and gifs and things in our organization, but they're like, you're not allowed to be talking to me at the moment, you know, or you're supposed to be, [00:24:00] you're supposed to be in that blocked out time. 

[00:24:01] Jess: Why are you calling me now? Which is, we can hold each other really accountable. Um, in, in still a really positive way, in a positive way. 

[00:24:09] Daniel: I love it. And I've seen that there's a very fun loving culture within Bulk Nutrients, which actually goes with the playful brand that you have. Yeah. So maybe to finish, I'd love for you to tell me a bit about Bulk Nutrients because we talk about attention being like a muscle and the more we practice and train our attention, the more we grow. 

[00:24:25] Daniel: And I know that's why you sponsored the show, because you actually care about people's concentration and their health as a whole. Is that right?  

[00:24:31] Jess: Yeah. So what we do is we manufacture, um, sports and nutritional supplements and our mission is to make quality supplements more affordable. So we bring in all the ingredients ourselves. 

[00:24:41] Jess: We develop the products, we blend them, we package them, and we ship them out direct to customer in Australia and New Zealand. Um, and we're really proud of that, um, I guess whole supply chain involvement. So we don't sell anyone else's products. We develop them specifically, um, for our customer base and we, we look after everything from raw goods, to delivering them to the customer. 

[00:24:59] Jess: When we [00:25:00] started, Ben very much saw a niche in the market which was about pricing. So it was very much around why are we paying so much more for these products in Australia than we are to bring them in even from overseas. But obviously, as we've developed, it's become you know, it's bigger than the sum of its parts now. 

[00:25:15] Jess: So not only do we care about providing those supplements and how we do that, um, but you know, quality is really important to us. But also I think philosophically it's just quality of life in general. So obviously if you, if you can build some exercise and that looks different for everyone into your life, in general you're going to feel a bit better. 

[00:25:31] Jess: You know, the exercise is really important for mental health as well as physical health, healthy aging, um, but also about, you know, being able to live the best version of your life. And so for us, I think part of that is living in a really distracted world with a huge amount of stuff going on all the time, which often makes us feel overwhelmed. 

[00:25:49] Jess: So if we can sort of, I guess, support that in the way that we work, that hopefully flows on then to the way that our staff can live their life outside of work. And we, we want to reflect that, [00:26:00] I guess, in the way that, that we work, but we can still be a really efficient, productive company by doing that. It doesn't, it doesn't require you to do extra time. 

[00:26:08] Jess: If anything, what can we cut out to make your time more effective when you're doing it?  

[00:26:12] Daniel: No, that's perfect. Look, and I use bulk nutrients. You probably can't tell, but, uh, but you know, I love your products. I love the brand. I love the culture that you've created, and I love that you contribute to the broader community in a really generous way, including things like this podcast. 

[00:26:26] Daniel: And I look, look, I've seen you make space in your life by being intentional in how you shape your time and manage your distractions. I've seen you, you lead your teams and your company to do the same. And obviously I've seen you do it in your home life. So, you know, you're an inspiration to me as well. Uh, and, uh, and I'm so grateful for having you on the show and thank you again for sponsoring our show. 

[00:26:48] Jess: No worries. Thanks. 

[00:26:53] Daniel: That was a good interview, wasn't it, Matt?  

[00:26:55] Matt: Yeah, I really enjoyed that. I particularly enjoyed, um, her point that she had to adjust her kind of [00:27:00] default natural style of working with people, highly interpersonal, highly relational. As the company grew and the organization grew, she actually realized that that could start to impair and detract 

[00:27:11] Matt: from the quality of work and the attention that her staff were paying. And so she had to actively acknowledge that and then start to work on it and change it, you know, do more deep work and that kind of stuff. That was a good insight. 

[00:27:20] Daniel: That's good. And one of the things I know about Bulk Nutrients and the way Jess leads is she really cares about maintaining the kind of the sense of family and culture that almost a startup has as the company just grows and grows and grows and she's wrestling with that, but I really like that wrestle. 

[00:27:35] Daniel: I think it's the wrestle of a, you know, caring, thoughtful CEO, which is great. Yeah. Uh, hey, I should have mentioned that Bulk Nutrients have actually sponsored the show, but also given a great coupon code. So if you want to purchase some of their fantastic products, you can go to bulknutrients.com.au. You get a 5 percent discount on any order over 45, uh, just put in the coupon code SPACEMAKERS. 

[00:27:57] Daniel: So thanks again for Bulk Nutrients sponsoring [00:28:00] us. Yeah. That's great. Uh, okay. Let's move on. Matt, let's move to the next conversation around behavior change because it's one thing to say, okay, I know what I want to change. I even know the habit that might help me get there in order to recapture the kind of life I want to live. 

[00:28:16] Daniel: Changing your behavior is tough, right? Yeah, it's hard to change habits and you've got particular experience working with people in behavior change. So maybe tell us a bit about your career experience in that, in that way and what can we learn if you're struggling to make these shifts?  

[00:28:29] Matt: Yeah, sure. So, uh, quite a long time ago, I was a social worker, uh, I was a social worker and I worked in a range of, uh, different backgrounds and settings, but primarily I worked in a correctional setting. 

[00:28:39] Matt: So I worked in, um, prison both here and overseas for a bit and also in the alcohol and drug sector. So worked like with a lot of people around changing their behavior. Um, and, uh, for starters, I want to say again, like that was a long time ago. So what I'll be talking about, it may not be exactly current. 

[00:28:56] Daniel: But you did it for over a decade. Did for a decade, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you worked [00:29:00] with like a lot of different clients in group settings. Yeah. In some tough situations. Yeah. And saw some good outcomes.  

[00:29:05] Matt: Yeah, yeah I did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People haven't changed. And also of course, like, um. A lot of the time, the people that I, that I was working with had, um, full blown chemical dependencies. 

[00:29:14] Matt: So, so when we're talking about addiction, again, full blown chemical addictions, yeah. And whereas, as you and I have already discussed, what we're talking about when it comes to getting too drawn into the digital distractions, you could probably term as a, um, a moderate behavioral. Yeah. So it's kind of low grade. 

[00:29:31] Daniel: Yeah. Constantly there. Yeah. Yeah. Not quite enough to ruin your life in a hurry, but enough to actually damage it over a long period of time.  

[00:29:38] Matt: Yeah, that's right. That's right. So I wouldn't want to say it's exactly the same thing as, you know, smoking. Definitely. Yeah. So with those two qualifiers, yeah. I thought about some of the parallels, I think, um, that you can draw between people again who are in that kind of situation, trying to make those fairly serious changes. 

[00:29:53] Matt: And um, the changes that we're advocating and talking about as well, again, trying to identify a big why that you say yes to which will [00:30:00] come at the expense of these digital distractions. 

[00:30:05] Matt: Most importantly, the people who I worked with, we, they always had a plan. Like I think you've already mentioned, you always need to have a plan when it comes to changing your behavior. Yeah. Because the pull of the default will always be strong. Well, not always, but initially it'll be very, very strong. 

[00:30:19] Matt: Yeah. So the allure of just kind of going back to what you've known, even if it wasn't helpful, even if it was kind of counterproductive, even if you didn't like it, unless you've got a plan, to articulate and direct a way out from that form of behavior. It's just so easy to kind of go back to the default. 

[00:30:35] Matt: Yeah.  

[00:30:36] Daniel: If you go back to that smoking example, and I know you worked with people with, you know, much more severe addictions and smoking as well in terms of chemical addictions, but, uh, to get to a plan, you need to be moving beyond, hey, wouldn't it be good if I stopped smoking? Yeah. To, you know, actually experiencing like it. 

[00:30:53] Daniel: enough motivation and internal drive to change that you're willing to actually say, okay, now I'm actually going to come up with a specific [00:31:00] goal and a way of doing it, right? Yeah, that's right. That's going beyond just ideas to intentions.  

[00:31:04] Matt: Intentions. Yeah, that's right. So that's the first thing. Secondly, um, you've got to expect some resistance. 

[00:31:10] Matt: So you would have found this too. Um, yeah, I tried to start a book club. You should have seen the resistance, like  

[00:31:17] Matt: a small incremental easily repeatable change to study a book club. Yeah, so, uh, I was like thinking more about your guitar playing example, right? So you're going to encounter some resistance like literally the pain that you experience in your fingertips After not playing for a while and not having those calluses build up. 

[00:31:31] Matt: That's like a form of resistance again, um, you'll be going against ingrained habits, ingrained ways of thinking, ingrained ways of just, um, habitual behaving. So you can always expect some resistance, I think, when it comes to making some decent behavioral change. So, um, in like going back to digital distractions, again, it's just so easy if I'm sitting around and maybe I'm feeling bored, it's going to be easy for me to slip the hand in the pocket, pull out the phone and just start scrolling. 

[00:31:58] Matt: So once I feel that, if [00:32:00] I'm trying to change that. I can expect I'm going to have to resist that urge.  

[00:32:04] Daniel: Yeah. So there'll be some pain essentially and some hurt and don't expect it not to be that. You're going to have to work through that.  

[00:32:09] Matt: That's right. I have to work through it.  

[00:32:10] Daniel: I like the guitar analogy because it is true. 

[00:32:12] Daniel: You know, it hurts a bit and you're limited with how much you can do physically because your fingers can't do it. and eventually you get the calluses and you don't notice it at all. Yeah. Uh, so that makes sense, particularly when we've talked about neuroplasticity and digital overuse. Yes. Yeah. That if you're relying on dopamine just to get through the day, if you're constantly reaching for your phone just to, I don't, just to get that next hit, the electrocution thing we talked about, well then yeah, it's going to take a little bit of pain and resistance to shift your habits. 

[00:32:37] Matt: Yes. Yeah. That's right. So that naturally brings us to the third thing, which is having a why and going back to why. So why do I want to persevere through this resistance? Why do I want to stick to my plan and not go back to the default? So this goes back to the conversations we've had about a greater yes. 

[00:32:55] Matt: And again, actually going as far as articulating that, documenting that.  

[00:32:59] Daniel: Yeah, definitely.  

[00:33:00] Daniel: And that's interesting that you put this third, because, um, I think about Cal Newport and, you know, others like David Allens even, you know, that you can start with, let's say, big Stephen Covey, find your big why, what's your greater yes, And then kind of work backwards. 

[00:33:13] Daniel: But someone like Cal Newport says actually he would start with habit change. So pick one habit, start to change it, and let your greater why emerge once you start to get the benefits. Uh, similar to let's say David Allen who would say if the alligators are snapping at your heels, deal with the alligators, and then as you get the space, you can start to think about your greater why. 

[00:33:31] Daniel: So it's interesting that you put it in that order. You have to actually start with some action. And as you create action and start moving. You'll get more ability to then think about why you're doing it and it kind of plays off the habit.  

[00:33:44] Matt: Yeah. That's it. That's it. So we've talked about making space for that, like actually taking the time out in your calendar or diary, your schedule to start asking questions that will help articulate that why haven't we yet. 

[00:33:52] Daniel: But if you're totally smashed on your addiction, you don't have the space to do that. So start by unplugging from the technologies and then [00:34:00] start by putting into some practice, you know, some practice. The plan that you want to do and then over time, your greater why will also grow.  

[00:34:05] Matt: Yeah, and again, like, saw that all the time when I was doing social work because inevitably like we all do, you find like you, where you encounter some moment of weakness where you're wavering. 

[00:34:13] Matt: Yep. And it's very, uh, and the, the choice before you is pretty clear. I can go back, I can revert back to doing this thing that I don't want to do, or I can try to maintain my change. And again, often the thing that we've done again, particularly when it comes to digital distractions, hyper palatable, easy, just always accessible. 

[00:34:29] Matt: So you need to have a greater, the greater why, the yes, really close, close at hand, uh, in the forefront of your brain to be able to reach and provide that little extra shot of motivation. Yeah.  

[00:34:39] Daniel: You know, really when I canceled book club, I was watching West Wing. All right. Alright. So, so great. Oh, wow. Yeah. 

[00:34:47] Matt: Now, here's like, here's a good one. And again, this came up all the time, uh, in my former line of work. And there's like, there's a whole lot of theory and research to, uh, to back up, to back up this idea. And that is, um, classic, [00:35:00] classic behaviors like alcohol and drug abuse, for example, or super controlling, even like abusive. 

[00:35:05] Matt: behavior. These are all what you can call maladaptive coping mechanisms or suboptimal coping mechanisms, um, in the sense that they are ways, they're means to try to achieve a credible and understandable end that is really bad ways or means to go about trying to achieve that end. So, for example, um, it's easy to get stuck into a really unhelpful pattern of, say, drinking too much if you've got a whole lot of issues in your life that you're trying to avoid. 

[00:35:31] Matt: So, the need there is to try to somehow work through those issues. The maladaptive coping mechanism is just to kind of drink until you forget about it.  

[00:35:41] Daniel: So, it's like, there's a reason, you're saying there's a reason every habit develops, there's a reason we reach for a phone, there's a reason we scroll social media incessantly, even though it bores us and we wish we hadn't done it. 

[00:35:49] Daniel: That's it. So, so you want to think about that reason. Yeah. Is that what you're saying? 

[00:35:53] Matt: I'm saying, yeah, exactly. So, you want to think about that reason and then identify. a healthy, productive [00:36:00] way, usually again a habit of going about admitting that same need.  

[00:36:03] Daniel: Yeah, that makes sense. It makes sense. 

[00:36:04] Matt: And usually you can, you can kind of take all those particular needs and they're going to end up in one of two camps, right? 

[00:36:09] Matt: It's going to be avoiding pain over here. So trying to turn down like the pain and suffering, or it's going to be trying to like to turn up the pleasure and satisfaction.  

[00:36:17] Daniel: Charles Duhigg writes a lot on this in his book, The Power of Habit. He talks about, um, how you might replace the cookie habit with, you know, like talking with someone and being social, which is why you get the cookie in the first place at lunchtime, you know, so again, there are other great resources beyond us that you can check out. 

[00:36:32] Matt: That's right. Um, again, I bring it back to digital distractions. Often, I think if, if your experience of most people's experiences like mine, scrolling, spinning, binge watching TV, all this stuff is usually about at heart. I think it's about avoiding. It's about like avoiding the work that I'm supposed to do. 

[00:36:48] Matt: It's avoiding the hard conversation I'm supposed to have, or it's, you know, or it's maybe I'm avoiding fostering and investing in a relationship that I'm supposed to. Does that make sense?  

[00:36:57] Daniel: Yeah, that makes sense. And, and even, you know, we talked [00:37:00] about that research where people would rather electrocute themselves than actually have silence. 

[00:37:03] Daniel: Yes. They're often, we're often avoiding just thinking about who we are and why we're here and what we need to do. Some of those existential questions pop up if, if you, take away some of the stimulation, right? But those questions are necessary to live an intentional life rather than just sleepwalk through it. 

[00:37:19] Daniel: So, there's lots of different things you avoid and run from.  

[00:37:22] Matt: That's it. And then, uh, lastly, um, and again, our experience has borne out time and time again back when I was social working. Every time the clients who I was working with put together a plan to make it really thorough and comprehensive, it always involved other people. 

[00:37:36] Matt: Trusted people, people who you could rely on to have your best interests at heart, who wanted you to, uh, to use the cliche like to be the best version of yourself, people you could be transparent with, and usually people who wanted to form, or not form even, but already had those habits down pat that you were trying to build, who were already exhibiting those behaviors regularly that you were hoping to [00:38:00] start exhibiting. 

[00:38:01] Matt: Does that make sense? So you want people who are going to consolidate and reinforce the path that you're going to go down.  

[00:38:06] Daniel: Yeah. As you know, I've got a friend who literally left the state to try to get out of cocaine addiction. And he found himself in Tassie without people who are addicted to cocaine. 

[00:38:16] Daniel: That was actually the game changer for getting past the rehab stage into, a, a normal life for him. Yeah. Yeah. So is that, that's kind of what you're saying?  

[00:38:23] Matt: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. So put, um, put this plan together, take this approach with other people who you know are gonna be on the same page. 

[00:38:31] Matt: And usually as you know, with the people comes the environment. So it'll be those environmental factors that'll also make the change that you want to take easier or not. Okay. You know, so, you know, for example, like if you go, um, if you are hanging out with people, like maybe over dinner. Everyone starts pulling out the device and looking at it, it's going to be easier for me too. 

[00:38:49] Matt: If there's some kind of even unspoken agreement like, you know, like I mean all of us are here to have a good time. Like none of us are going to pull out a phone unless something really urgent comes through. Then again, it's going to make it easy for me to maintain that same behavior. [00:39:00]  

[00:39:00] Daniel: And we're going to talk about community in our final episode, the importance of community. 

[00:39:04] Daniel: So maybe we just quickly summarize. So if, if, if people want to make these changes, particularly in the area of making space and focusing on things that matter outside of the, you know, low quality digital activity realm. Uh, so they need a plan. They're going to expect resistance. So, no, it's going to be a bit painful. 

[00:39:23] Daniel: You have to think about your why. So, what's your deeper motivation? But you also have to think about, uh, what is the need that this behavior, this maladaptive, coping mechanism I think you used. What's the need that this is addressing? And then how might I address it in a different way? Which is partly those kind of questions around what new habits might we want to build? 

[00:39:41] Daniel: Uh, and then finally, who can help you? Who can you do this with? Because it's going to be very hard to do it by yourself. Yeah.  

[00:39:47] Matt: Yeah. That's good. And again, like, I don't think that we can say, um, enough or stress enough to make these changes for the better. Long term, you're going to feel better and more fulfilled. 

[00:39:56] Matt: But, but in the short term, it's going to be a little bit harder than just kind of sticking to whatever [00:40:00] it is that you were doing. You've never, like, you've never been a smoker, have you? No. Okay. So I can try if you want. It's never too late. So, so look, I'm an, I'm an ex smoker and I'll tell you smoking, uh, smoking made me feel good. 

[00:40:12] Matt: It released like, you know, those chemicals that don't mean it felt good and it was easy. It was easy. It wasn't until I started running that that was a lot harder than smoking initially. So running was a lot harder initially than smoking. I started running because I knew I couldn't be a runner and a smoker at the same time. 

[00:40:29] Matt: So one cancelled out the other, but the point is, is the running path was a lot harder, there was more initial resistance compared to just lighting up a cigarette and eventually after running enough, I started feeling good. I started feeling better than I did when I was smoking. Interesting. It makes sense. 

[00:40:47] Daniel: Yeah, and that fits all those kind of steps that you've described and it fits where we're heading next which is how do we actually take a low grade good into digital addiction, let's say, rather than a full blown chemical addiction, because that's the good news. We're not talking about full blown chemical [00:41:00] addiction, we're talking about, for most of us, there is internet addiction, but for most of us, we're just wasting our life, and we're filling our brain with stuff that's making us distracted, and it's terrible. 

[00:41:09] Daniel: drawing us away from the better life we want to live. That's it. So we always finish each episode with a practical activity. Uh, we're getting to the meaty end of this and the activity is simply to think about how you might fill the void by doing the reps with a repetitive activity. So I want you to literally think of that Stephen Covey question. 

[00:41:28] Daniel: What is one small practical action that you can do on a repetitive basis that will make a tangible significant difference in your personal or work life. Just pick one of them. Pick one domain, uh, and answer that question by reflecting on it and then putting in a plan into practice. Yeah. So you and I have talked about, you know, if people are going to think about that question, It's worth thinking about various domains in our life where the research says this is where you want to fill the void with these particular things to increase our focus, attention, happiness, quality of life. 

[00:41:58] Daniel: Uh, so things like [00:42:00] improving your physical health. So you mentioned running. You know, I think, uh, to fill the void with some type of physical activity is a winner. Uh, as a physiotherapist, not only am I promoting physical activity for your physical health, but actually the research says that there's probably even more benefits on your mental health and your cognitive well being. 

[00:42:17] Daniel: abilities, uh, by exercising, not just the physical benefits. So that's definitely bundling just there. Uh, so physical health, uh, another domain is learning and mental growth. So reading, learning, increasing your thought life, uh, practice reading books again is a big one that I would really advocate for as a, a keystone habit. 

[00:42:36] Daniel: Uh, relationship building. So we've talked a lot about that. You know, do you want to have a date night with your spouse, spend more time with the kids, run a book club with your mates. Uh, hobbies and leisure. We've talked about high quality leisure activity. You know, if I keep playing guitar, I might actually be able to play three songs one day. 

[00:42:52] Daniel: Uh, and then spiritual growth, uh, you know, that involves silence, contemplation, journaling, meditation, prayer, like addressing the [00:43:00] inner life, which then flows out into your outer life. So these six domains, physical health, learning, meditation, Relationship building, you know, hobbies and leisure and spiritual growth. 

[00:43:09] Daniel: These are good areas for you to invest your habits in, to fill the void and the space made by removing notifications, mindless scrolling and time on social media.  

[00:43:20] Matt: That's great. So what I like about those six is that there's something that everyone will be able to dive into in amongst those six. And again, just to stress what you were saying before, we're only advocating a small change, aren't we? 

[00:43:30] Daniel: Oh, yeah. One small change. But remember, you can also bundle it, right? So it might be, I really want to invest in thinking more deeply. So I'll read, but I'll talk about that, the books with, you know, a friend or I want to exercise more, but I want to be more social. So let's join a club or go to CrossFit. Do you know what I mean? 

[00:43:49] Daniel: So you can bundle and then pull in a few domains. And for example, if you're doing that, you're also increasing your cognitive ability because you're getting fit. So it's three domains in one. Yeah. Very productive. [00:44:00] Very efficient. Very efficient. If you can find a way of doing all six domains in one, let me know. 

[00:44:05] Daniel: And, uh, we'll, we'll advertise it in the next show. But, um, yeah, so, so do that once you've worked out what you want to do, give it a go. Just do one small activity this week and start to put it into practice. I know that's a lot, but we're near the end of the season and, you know, we really want you to start to make progress so that you finish this season having journeyed with us and actually experienced some type of tangible, meaningful benefit. 

[00:44:27] Daniel: And if it's a habit, well, that benefit will play out well beyond this episode. That's it. So we like to lead with example. We try. We try. We've also given some pre thought about this. What would you like to do?  

[00:44:38] Matt: Yeah. So here's what I'd like to do. I'm trying to place this in that list of the big six that we mentioned. 

[00:44:44] Matt: And I think it probably goes into learning and mental growth. I want to get really rigorous and disciplined with my time blocking on a daily basis. That is every day, every workday at least, I want to start the day. I want to start my workday by opening up my big old [00:45:00] school hardbound A4 page to a day calendar called Diary. 

[00:45:05] Matt: And I want to block out in 30 minute increments how I'm going to spend all my time nine to five.  

[00:45:10] Daniel: Okay, so kind of Newport style like time block planning where you're actually allocating tasks to every part of the day. Yes. And then Yeah. Moving that as things change. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Cause I need one small habit. 

[00:45:22] Matt: Yeah. I look, I know it's not starting a book club with your mates, but still. Yeah. Because that's going to help really direct and focus my attention on what's important. If I don't have that, if I don't have like those kind of identified hard and fast boundaries, my, uh, my default can just be to fritter away time and often that involves the digital distraction stuff. 

[00:45:39] Matt: Yeah.  

[00:45:40] Daniel: Cool. But I can see how that one habit would unlock a whole lot of benefits in whole of areas of life. Yeah. So my small simple thing is I'm going to solve climate change next week. Uh, no. Uh, I've been thinking about the activities we've been doing this whole time. And the one that was the kicker for me was give attention to three people who really matter in your life. 

[00:45:57] Daniel: Yeah. And write their names down. And actually focus on [00:46:00] people. You know, I, I do get so task focused, so goal focused, uh, and honestly so focused on myself and what I want to achieve that I, I'm a bit blind sometimes to the people I care about most. And so I want to get better as a habit. Um, and I was thinking about it on a walk, uh, I'm a bit like, cause I'm actually a very focused person. 

[00:46:21] Daniel: That's one of my strengths. I get hyper focused. No. Yeah, yeah, no, right? Um, but it's a bit like, uh, those kind of bowling alleys, you know, when you, you put up the bumper bars for the kids who can't actually bowl and you, you can't miss like the skittles. Uh, it's a bit like when I'm focusing on a goal or a project or a task, it's like me with one lane and I find it very hard to shift. 

[00:46:42] Daniel: And see all the other lanes that are around me, particularly people in my life. So, uh, I want to get better at, um, probably writing in my diary, who are the people I want to give attention to. Just making sure that I'm, I'm giving more of my cognitive attention to people and thinking about them. [00:47:00] how I can help or love people in my life. 

[00:47:03] Daniel: Uh, that might not sound hard, but it's actually quite hard for me. So there's a bit of pain in that. Yeah. In terms of learning to reshift how I think. Yeah. And give attention to who I really care about. So that's what I want. That's good.  

[00:47:13] Matt: So you'll be redirecting focus towards important people in your life. Yeah. It's a worthwhile goal there.  

[00:47:19] Daniel: So, we always add a little bit of space in the episode to think about what you've heard. In this situation, I just really want you to pause and reflect on when might you make time this week, to think about this question and then obviously put something into practice. So, have a moment of silence or space to think about when you'll actually take the time to think deeply about this.[00:48:00]  

[00:48:27] Daniel: So, hopefully you came up with an action trigger. Uh, if you need help, putting into practice the habits that you come up with. We have this great tool. We've got this cool little habit tracker that you could download if you go to spacemakers.au forward slash habit. Uh, there are two trackers. Basically a habit tracker is where you can either print off a weekly tracker where you can tick off every day that you've actually done this small habit. 

[00:48:50] Daniel: So for me, you know, I've actually thought about and given attention to people in my life. I tick that off every day. Uh, Or there's an annual tracker where if you have a weekly habit, like I [00:49:00] want to exercise twice a week, you can tick it off for 52 weeks. Uh, so if you're interested, you know, download it from spacemaker.au slash habit and start doing the wraps. 

[00:49:10] Daniel: That's it. So Matt, that's it. One show left, one show. Thank you to all our listeners who have been following this series this far. Next week, we're wrapping up. Uh, we're going to talk about community. We're going to talk about why we need a village to kind of overcome our crazy distracted lives and, you know, maybe celebrate what we've learned throughout this season one. 

[00:49:30] Daniel: Yeah. Cool. Until next time. Make space.  

[00:49:34] INTRO VOICE: The Space Makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.  

[00:49:38] Daniel: A shout out to our sponsor, Bulk Nutrients. The superheroes of the supplement world helping us make space for gains, not pains. And yes, that's what happens when I rely on ChatGPT to write my pithy one liners. You can enjoy a 5 percent discount on protein powders and health supplements at bulknutrients.com. au. Just enter the coupon code [00:50:00] SPACEMAKERS for a discount on orders over 45.  

[00:50:04] INTRO VOICE: If you enjoyed this podcast, we would love you to follow us and leave a positive review and help others make space by sharing this episode with others. A friend or subscribe to our blog post at Space Makers au. 

[00:50:19] INTRO VOICE: Until next time, make space.