[00:00:00] Daniel: Um, Greetings fellow space travellers. Welcome to another episode of The Space Makers, your guide to slowing down, thinking deeply, and living a meaningful life. I'm Daniel Sih, your host, and we're guiding you through the art of recapturing your fractured attention one habit at a time, to focus on what truly matters.

[00:00:22] Daniel: A special thanks to our sponsor, Bulk Nutrients, who support your health, fitness and wellbeing. Proudly making quality supplements more affordable right here in Tasmania. You can enjoy a 5 percent discount on protein powders and health supplements at bulknutrients.com.au. Just enter the coupon code SPACEMAKERS for a discount on orders over $45.

[00:00:42] Daniel: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:00:48] Daniel: Hi everyone, welcome to The Spacemakers where we help you make space for a better life. My name is Daniel Sih and I'm a productivity author and coach and speaker. And we are here in season one to talk [00:01:00] about the fracturing of our attention and how to make space to improve your concentration.

[00:01:06] Daniel: Basically how to focus in a world where we're all distracted. And I'm super excited because today we have a guest, Jack Riewoldt from the Richmond Footy Club. We're going to talk about footy. We're going to talk about life and what it means to be productive on and off the footy field. For those who don't know Jack, he is a former Richmond footy player in the AFL.

[00:01:25] Daniel: He was a vice captain who led his team to three AFL premierships. He is a three times Coleman medalist, a three times All Australian, and he was the leading goal kicker in Richmond in his time there. Three seems to be a number for him. He's got three young kids. He's also got three jobs. He works for the Authentic Leaders Group as a director, uh, works for TAS Footy and for Fox Sport.

[00:01:47] Daniel: Uh, he's got his own podcast, has written his own book, uh, could go on. And importantly, uh, Jack is a Tasmanian like myself, although maybe even more Tasmanian because he was actually born here. Uh, I'm super excited to have Jack on the [00:02:00] show to talk about focus and attention. Welcome Jack.

[00:02:03] Jack R: Thank you for having me.

[00:02:03] Jack R: Good to be on Spacemakers.

[00:02:04] Daniel: Yeah. It's really good to have you here. And uh, is that right? You've got three jobs now. You've got like Authentic Leaders Group.

[00:02:11] Jack R: Yeah. Authentic leaders, which is, uh, which is a group that I founded, um, with a couple of other friends from Victoria, as well as my wife, Carly. Uh, I work for the, The 19th license, the Tasmanian football club in a, um, ambassador slash sort of culture position.

[00:02:28] Jack R: And what else do I do? Fox footy. I've got to go. I've worked at Fox footy covering football. So that gives me - there's more than three. That gives me a little bit of a footy fix. I've got three kids, but I've just. Just got an, um, gone and started a, a small, not say a small, but a logistics management firm that does, um, it's, uh, it's like a broker for, for logistics.

[00:02:48] Jack R: So there's people that are smarter than me, but one thing I'm good at is relationships, which I'm sure we will talk about today because I've learned that over my journey, um, and that role fits in nicely with that. So, uh, certainly there's an [00:03:00] element of juggling everything. Yeah. It's a, it's certainly a different lifestyle than the one that I've lived for the last seven, eight years.

[00:03:05] Daniel: Yeah. And so we're going to talk about that. Uh, we're going to talk a bit about footy. We're going to talk about, you know, what it means to focus and, and build systems and productivity in the footy field, but we're going to talk about the transition and then a bit about, you know, what, what are you learning in this new season of life, which should be great.

[00:03:21] Daniel: So I want to start. So, I mean, I've done some work with your business, Authentic Leaders Group, and we've done some stuff around strategy and productivity, but we've also done a lot of work around strengths. And so people might not have heard your strengths. So we've worked on what we call the Clifton Strengths, which is a Gallup organization tool.

[00:03:39] Daniel: And it's a way of understanding what you're good at and giving you a language individually and as a team, to talk about what you're good at. So I'm going to put you on the spot and we're going to talk about your strengths. Uh, so from my understanding and we, I have asked permission that I can share these of course, but, uh, your top five strengths came out as communication, activator, strategic, [00:04:00] futuristic, and woo, which means winning others over.

[00:04:04] Daniel: Uh, do you want to tell us about one or two of those strengths, what they are and how you use them day by day?

[00:04:08] Jack R: Yeah, it's probably good to chat about how I sort of came across Clifton Strengths for the first time really ever. Um, so in 2015, I, I sort of was at this really pivotal time in my football career where I'd been at Richmond for, for nearly 10 years.

[00:04:24] Jack R: So I was drafted when I was 17. My wife, Carly, she works in L&D and she's got a, a master's in organizational leadership. So I've, I'd always had that little side of my life at home. Um, Carly suggested I do Gallop Strength just to start to know myself a little bit better. And at this point in my, in my career, I was

[00:04:46] Jack R: like at this crossroads where Richmond wasn't a very successful organization to work in. I had been in a leadership position, had that taken away from me and was sort of searching for a little bit where I was, where I sat in, in the group [00:05:00] and in the club of the football club. So that's probably where, where it started for me.

[00:05:04] Jack R: And now, and now it's got to the point where I can, I know my top five and they do change with life circumstances and whatnot.

[00:05:11] Daniel: For those who don't know the uh, we're typically strong in about 10 of our strengths, there's 34 themes, and those 10 are used on a regular basis. So we're only going to talk about the first five, but you might even have more than that.

[00:05:23] Daniel: And then increasingly, they become a bit more like, you know, your left hand versus your right hand or your non dominant strengths. But yeah, tell me uh, one of the strengths you love and how you use it.

[00:05:33] Jack R: Yeah, well, the reason I like Gallop is we talk about strengths rather than weaknesses and we're all programmed to fight or flight.

[00:05:39] Jack R: Like we're all programmed to think about what we're not great at, especially probably as men. But there's that, like you look at even body image, like people always, they're not that well, they always want something to do or they want to change something, but they never know until about what you create out.

[00:05:51] Jack R: And that was a real shift for me personally that then flowed into my workplace as well that we started to talk about what we were bloody great at [00:06:00] because I got introduced to this 80 20 rule that was just do things right, 80 percent of the time. You're going to stuff stuff up 20 percent of the time.

[00:06:07] Jack R: But if you get it right 80 percent of the time, you're going to be okay. So we, we spoke about that a lot at the tags, but like my, my sort of communicator, activator, strategic, futuristic, and, and woo, I'm always attracted to woo. I think it's a, um, it's a, it's something that I like to do. Like I like to, I like to be friendly with people, have conversation, maybe get people to see things from a different perspective and, and Win Others Over certainly has that.

[00:06:33] Jack R: So I love that one. I think that's, That's probably my favorite if I was going to choose one out of the five.

[00:06:38] Daniel: Yeah, and I've seen that in you. So like winning others over is about, you know, it's not about charisma necessarily, even though I think you are charismatic, but it's about having this ability to be interested in people and to just be a presence and where people are.

[00:06:49] Daniel: You, you win people over because you're curious about them and you build relationships and you connect people, that kind of stuff. Yeah.

[00:06:54] Jack R: It's because it's, it sort of sounds a little bit like it's a, um, you're a, you're a lawyer in a court [00:07:00] and you're trying to win the jury over, but you're not, it's, it's making other people feel good makes me feel good.

[00:07:06] Jack R: So like, I, I love organizing stuff where, whether that be, um, a first year's camp in 2017 for the Richmond Football Club, to barbecues, to now in Authentic Leaders where you all, where you, we organize and facilitate life changing experiences for people that would never go through those. There's an element of that where you're just like, I just love to, you know, Win people over.

[00:07:33] Jack R: Yeah. By that. And, and have, and see them go through something that is life changing. And it doesn't have to be through words, it can be just through actions or it can be just through placement. And, and I mean, some of the stuff that we do at Authentic Leaders is in the most remarkable places in the world.

[00:07:49] Jack R: Um, right here in Tasmania on the three capes, Central Australia at Uluru. Up in the high country in Victoria and, and we take [00:08:00] people to these places and allow them to what we call rewild, where you get back to being a human being like fundamentally we're, we're probably all bred to, to reproduce and hunt to feed ourselves.

[00:08:14] Jack R: And we like to be in packs as, as humans sort of are attracted to humans. So there's that sort of aspect to just a bit of rewilding where you put people back out into an environment where they just don't have their phone or they don't have anything like that and they just get to be themselves again, but get to be a basic human being.

[00:08:33] Daniel: And as well, we've connected through my space maker stuff in the sense of, you know, disconnecting, making space. And I love your tagline, which is to learn in the world's best classroom, you know, outdoors, experiential learning. Is that right?

[00:08:44] Jack R: In the world's best classroom.

[00:08:45] Daniel: So, yeah. So there's a natural connection in the way that I see the world and the way, uh, Authentic Leaders works, which has been really great.

[00:08:51] Daniel: But, um, yeah. Let me dive back into footy because I'm curious about what I'm sure our listeners will be interested about how your habits and systems [00:09:00] helped you become an elite athlete. And then we'll talk about the transition out of footy. Is that all right? Uh, so look, I've always been curious about what happens when you're standing in front of 80, 000 people and you take a mark and you've got the share and you have to kick it through the sticks.

[00:09:14] Daniel: I don't know. And it's not an easy kick, but it's not impossible. And you've got. Uh, you know, maybe the Tiger Army screaming on one side and thousands kind of booing you or trying to distract you on the other. I mean, that is a moment of deep focus where you have to concentrate. You have to be at the top of your game.

[00:09:31] Daniel: Uh, I'm curious what goes on in your mind in that moment, like, what are you thinking about and how do you actually concentrate on what you have to concentrate on?

[00:09:39] Jack R: Uh, it's interesting. Um, yeah. Certainly, I think there's an element of repetition about it where it just becomes a habit that you create. Um, but it is, it's hard to train to have say a hundred thousand people on grand final day in an environment, like you don't get that until you get to the day.

[00:09:58] Jack R: So there's, there's elements about [00:10:00] creating habits. Um, and, and, and we, I sort of subscribe to, to that really in anything. It's like an apprenticeship for, for, for, for a trade or, or whatever, is that the first 50 games of an AFL player's career, everyone's just happy to get a game because it's new, it's exciting.

[00:10:19] Jack R: There's 44 players on the list and there's only 22 selected on the weekend. All you want to do is get a game. And from 50 to a hundred games, you want to solidify yourself in the team. We want to get a game every week. So it's like, oh, now, now I feel like I belong, I feel like I'm a part of the team. And then after that, whether it's between 100 and 150 games or further on to that, you actually start to think about, oh, what am I going to do for the team?

[00:10:42] Jack R: How am I going to play for the team? That's where the players start to come into their own, um, and mentally they start to perform at their best week in, week out. And that's, that's creating, creating that habit, but also [00:11:00] creating this thought process that you, you shift everything away from outcome, um, which is.

[00:11:05] Jack R: I'm just getting a game. Am I going to get dropped? To all of a sudden, what can I do for someone else? And, and, and that thought process, um, allows you to be the best version of yourself, whether that be football or anything or in life. You actually start to be the best version of yourself because everything else can become automatic.

[00:11:25] Jack R: It's after playing footy for 10 years, which probably take you to eight, 10 years to get to 150 games.

[00:11:30] Daniel: And you've got to get the, to get recruited in

[00:11:33] Daniel: the first place. You've done a lot of footy and you've done a lot of practice, right?

[00:11:36] Jack R: Yeah. So you've got a skillset there and it's funny how the body kicks in and how the mind kicks in and becomes so automatic and it's called a state of flow.

[00:11:44] Jack R: Yeah. So there's a great documentary called Reggie Miller, Winning Time where he just gets into a state of flow. And we, and we speak about that and we spoke about that a lot, post 2016 at the tags where we did, we started to, to really open up [00:12:00] our eyes to the mental side of the game and, and, and more about what was, what was called a times B, which is your strengths, um, versus, um, bullshit.

[00:12:10] Jack R: So I use your, a game, which is the things that you're great at, which we spoke about. Like what am I good at? And that might be your Clifton strengths or it might be certain attributes in your job. For me, I was a really great, I was a really good mark. Um, and I was a really smart footballer too. So I was quite, could read the game pretty well.

[00:12:28] Jack R: And then the B factors, uh, the weather, the umpires, everything that's out of your control and how, how, how quickly that, those B factors can drag you away from, from your, from your A game. So in, in the case of 100, 000 people at the G, 100, 000 people is just 100, 000 B factors. They're all trying to pull you in one direction and, and one of the great skills anyone can ever learn to do is capture their own attention

[00:12:56] Jack R: When they find themselves slipping and for us, [00:13:00] we just started creating habits, our attention might not be slipping, but we were so habitual about actually using something to bring us back to our A game and focusing on our strengths that we never, we never slipped. And if we did slip, we would be able to

[00:13:15] Jack R: Pull ourselves back to, to what was our best performance. So I'll give you an example. Yeah. So for me, like I used to, um, I used to walk behind people and try and look at the top of their heads because it made me feel like I had a bigger presence. And it's just a simple thing like that. Like I'd walk on my toes, put my chest up, um, and I'd focus on, on the back of other people so that I could actually feel like I was not superior, but I felt like I was the, being the big, tall, best version of myself, um, and that was what I used to do to get me back in my A.

[00:13:47] Jack R: And, and by doing that, then it just, the, the pathways in my mind would, would, would flick away to, hey, I'm a great mark. Yeah. I'm great at this. I'm great at this. And then. Uh, you break it down as, well, what do I need to do to do [00:14:00] that? Well, I got myself in a position where because I played lots of footy, it was just automatic again as well.

[00:14:06] Daniel: So on the one hand, you've done heaps and heaps of practice. And so when you rock up, you've got the muscle memory and the automated ability to be able to kick when you want to. But you've also done a whole lot mental habits. And I love what you said, you know, what you're paying attention to what matters from going from your B game to your A game.

[00:14:23] Daniel: And the whole, this whole series is about attention and that what we give attention to change our life. And the fact that we need to give attention to how do we shape our focus and our attention muscles. So what you've said is very similar. Uh, when, when you're physically on a field though, I mean, what is actually going through your brain?

[00:14:41] Daniel: Can you, like, are you thinking about, I need to kick this? Are you focusing on your breathing? Do you know what's actually going in your head as you're trying to take that walk to kick that, to kick that goal?

[00:14:53] Jack R: Um, so say for goal kicking and, and obviously like goal kicking is a big part, was a big part of my job.

[00:14:58] Jack R: Um, you [00:15:00] go through a whole host of different things and, and like, even before I met, so, Emma Murray, um, was the lady who, who spoke to Richmond about and, and changed Richmond a little bit about our mental side of things, a little bit, a big bit about how we did it. But subconsciously I was doing that before I even met Emma.

[00:15:17] Jack R: Like I can remember I used to walk, so I grew up in Bellerive here in Hobart and I used to walk from Bellerive, King Street where I lived, down to, to Bellerive Oval to play senior footy. When I was 15, so I'd walk down to the oval, it was only sort of 500 meters away. And I used to play footy the best when I was happy.

[00:15:36] Jack R: So I used to love the song, Build Me Up Buttercup, and I had a pink iPod and I'd put that in and I'd play that. And I would, you know this is going national, right? That's fine. Okay. Um, and I, and I would, and I would, and I would really overtly do that. to make me feel good as I'd walk down to the, um, to the ground.

[00:15:55] Jack R: Cause that was just who I was. It was great fun. So I really [00:16:00] struggled for goal kicking in 2000 and at the end of 2014 or 15, I think it was. I can distinctly remember a game against Sydney up at the SCG. And it's amazing how things come back to you at some point in time. And you can see on TV, I'm walking in and so that I'm happy and just carefree, I'm singing build me up buttercup as I'm walking in to have a shot for goal.

[00:16:22] Jack R: And that was just a distractor to Allow my automation of just being a good footballer and a good goal kicker work.

[00:16:30] Daniel: Get your mind out the way.

[00:16:34] Jack R: Get my mind out of the way. Let the muscle memory. Yeah, so and then like I don't count how many steps I will have when I walk in, I don't count how many steps I walk back, but literally pick something behind the goals, which I thought was in the middle.

[00:16:45] Jack R: I'd line, and now that sounds simple, but um, I learnt on a Texas shooting range that I'm left eyed. Yep. So I'd line that up with my left eye rather than my right eye.

[00:16:55] Daniel: Yep. Um, yeah, it's a build a trick where you put your hand up and you close one eye and see which one moves first.

[00:16:59] Jack R: Yeah. [00:17:00] Yeah. So then, and so I'd pick up a point of grass that lined up as I line up my left eye and I'll just walk at the grass and Um, all my focus would be is the grass ball drop, grass ball drop, and that is literally all it was.

[00:17:13] Jack R: Like, so it was a holiday that, a holiday to Texas where I was on a, like a clay shooting range and I was like, Oh, I think you got the wrong eye closed. And I was like, what do you mean? And they're like, go, go. And I was like, all of a sudden I turned into Michael Diamond. I was, I was hitting targets left, right and center.

[00:17:29] Daniel: Cause it makes sense though, because what you're doing is, so you're not thinking about yourself, you know, and obviously you want to be in a frame where you're actually having fun and you're thinking about the team. Yeah. Right. But you're actually just concentrating on a specific thing and you're honing in your focus through years of practice so that you can push out all the B game stuff, you know, the screaming crowds, all the wind, the distractions, and, and you just get back into doing the thing you need, which is flow.

[00:17:52] Daniel: And that's one of the things we teach with deep work and with concentration and focus in the workplace. How do you actually remove distractions? How do you create [00:18:00] habits and practices so that when you need to achieve concentrated tasks or speak in front of an audience? Or be it your A game in terms of a conversation with others, how do you just bring in all that practice?

[00:18:13] Daniel: So I think that's, that's a fascinating insight.

[00:18:14] Jack R: And I think that the caveat over all of this is that you can do everything right and shit can still go wrong. Like you just like, you might stumble and, and or the ball drop just goes wrong even when like, a gust of wind comes through, like, you, like, if say if you're presenting on a stage or something, and the stage lights fall down, it's like, she just goes wrong sometimes, and that's life.

[00:18:36] Daniel: Yeah, you said to me once that 80 percent of the time, the systems and processes get you there, but then 20 percent of the time, you're playing with an oval ball. Is that right? What you said?

[00:18:46] Jack R: Yeah, yeah. Like that's a, It just bounces back.

[00:18:46] Daniel: It just bounces back. That's a good analogy for life.

[00:18:49] Jack R: Yeah, some Kilda supporters would know that.

[00:18:50] Daniel: Yeah, that's true. It's true. Um, all right. So let's move on. We've talked about you as an individual. I just want to hear a few things about the systems and culture even that helped [00:19:00] you become productive and achieve your best as a team, essentially. I remember you once said when we were coaching, you said that systems provide safety.

[00:19:10] Daniel: And then if you get the systems and culture right. The rest looks after itself. I mean, I'm paraphrasing what you said.

[00:19:15] Jack R: Yeah. So there's on field systems. So, so like, I suppose in any workplace you have a, you have a system and footies are actually a great, I think a great teaching tool for a lot of organizations, just how it all works.

[00:19:28] Jack R: So fast paced the game, but also just the job is, is high pace. So you go week to week and you play a game the next week, you play a game next week. So you've got this like weekly cycle of win, lose.

[00:19:39] Daniel: Yeah.

[00:19:39] Jack R: You win, you're on a high, but you got it. You can't get too high to come back down for the next game.

[00:19:43] Jack R: You lose, you go down, but you got to find something to then bring the group back up. Plus you throw in two teams, so you might have a VFL team that's won really well on the weekend and an AFL team that's lost. And you've got to find the balance there to, to, to keep it all rolling ahead. But. The thing with the system and the safety in the system, we always [00:20:00] spoke about there's safety in the system.

[00:20:02] Jack R: So if you do your job, which is your job in the system, you'll be fine. And that provides safety in selection, provides safety to say, Oh, I'm not having a great day today. What have I got to come back to? Well, I don't have to be an absolute superstar today. I've just got to do my job. And then on top of that, that's the cream.

[00:20:21] Jack R: So, I mean, there's, there's only certain players that can do the crime. They, they, they are guns. Um, and your superstar, but they just add that little bit, but there's players out there that their job is to just do their job. Um, and you need, and you need a whole host of them and you need to reward people accordingly for, for what they do.

[00:20:40] Daniel: So when, when you talk about the systems then, so my understanding with what you've shared is that you actually have a very, like, being an elite footy player is a very structured thing. Like you've got some, you know what you're doing, day by day, week by week.

[00:20:53] Jack R: There's off field structure so, one of the things I really struggled when I came out of footy was like, diarized.

[00:20:59] Daniel: Yeah.

[00:21:00] Jack R: Regimented like a military, right?

[00:21:02] Daniel: So, tell me about what you did. Like, what does it look like?

[00:21:03] Jack R: So, it would be like, 8.30 start every day. Um. Then 30, we had this thing called Power Hour where we would, it's all about building relationships. So it's literally sitting around having coffee, I might be grabbing someone to do some extras.

[00:21:17] Jack R: And then it's team meeting, training, lunch, weights, massage, like this is like regimented to the, to the minute. Even the structures of, of weights, like you'd know what you were going to do. Training drills, you knew what you had to do. Uh, but then that flows on to an on field capacity as well where say you want to play a certain type of defence.

[00:21:37] Jack R: So, for us, we wanted to play a really aggressive defence. So, for example, on the side of the oval where the opposition have got the ball, on the side of the oval where they have the ball out, the ball, our defenders and possibly our midfielders would, would all press up, come up and then that to try and put pressure on the ball and turn the ball back over.[00:22:00]

[00:22:00] Jack R: But if you, if you press up the ground, you sort of leave a hole at your own goals. So then the players on the other side of the ground or the fat side of the ground where we would call that, would have to rotate him behind. So you create a system that way as well. It's a, it's, it's, it's a machine basically that has, it has 18 cogs that work at the same time, which is, and so that works offense and defense.

[00:22:22] Jack R: So we would stop the, we would stop game review at certain points and know exactly where people should be standing. And this is in a game that's played on a huge oval with an oval ball, things going wrong and opposition and all this stuff, but we'd still have basic principles that ID percent. That we would want people to be standing in certain positions.

[00:22:42] Jack R: So it's, it's, it's funny how that, that all works. And, and what would happen when we would lose one cog wouldn't get it right. And the flow on effect from one cog not getting it right to the next one, to the next one. You could say how important every single job is, whether it be the best player on the team, [00:23:00] or last player picked or the, the, the player that's doing a role off the ball as far away, like maybe a hundred meters away from the ball, how important that role is.

[00:23:08] Daniel: What it reminds me of, and obviously I don't know anything about footy, but I work and live in the business realm and work with organizational change. And look, what's fascinating is what I'm seeing more and more is there's this culture in workplace in, in workplaces and in business where basically people are given tools like Microsoft Teams and email and

[00:23:27] Daniel: Diaries and calendars, and it's like good luck you know, every individual needs to make up their own system their own workflow and it's up to you to be autonomous in your work And somehow we think that that's gonna lead to high performance and it almost never does. It leads to a bunch of individuals just constantly texting, notifying each other distracting each other, doing lots of shallow small work.

[00:23:48] Daniel: And so a lot of my work with, with Teams is, okay, we have to actually create shared processes and rhythms and workflows so that actually individual preference doesn't trump team [00:24:00] performance. Now, it doesn't mean you have rules and regulations like you would in a football field, but at least let's all have the same way of using Teams or email.

[00:24:08] Daniel: Let's have meetings at the same time. Let's structure and plan our week in the same way. And what that always leads to is high level performance.

[00:24:15] Jack R: Language is another one too, like, like, I could talk football language to you right now and you would have absolutely no idea about what I was speaking, but if I said that to any one of the Richmond players that I played with, you'd know exactly what we were talking about.

[00:24:30] Jack R: Yeah. So it's having, it's having that lingo. So the culture that you build as well, right? Yeah, yeah. So you, you, you're nearly this little sort of microcosm inside of a, an AFL environment where. Like we speak a different language and I think management probably has and people that manage people probably could look at the way.

[00:24:48] Jack R: I have to say it's like, everyone has a coach. And then what happens is as, as, as players get older, they start to manage younger players [00:25:00] and it's not through any official capacity or anything like that. It's actually through time together.

[00:25:10] Daniel: And a lot of people like you’re saying, I get thrown into a manager's role. I'm like, Oh, you've got a team of 10 now, but they may have only been working in the business for 12 months or if they're lucky. Yeah. Whereas there's learned experience where you start, you actually acquire knowledge. You're sort of an apprenticeship based system, isn't it? You acquire, yeah, acquire knowledge and then you start to impart knowledge.

[00:25:26] Jack R: Yeah. Yeah, which makes a lot of sense. And then a lot of, a lot of players end up being coaches so they sort of continue to impart knowledge.

[00:25:32] Daniel: That's fascinating. So, I suppose one of the things I've taken away though is that, uh, you know, I might look at you, you do these specky marks, you look like you're this amazing individual and of course, you know, you're not.

[00:25:41] Daniel: You've got your own talents and skills, but what we don't see necessarily is that actually you're part of a very structured system, which has got a bunch of habits and processes and practices around it. And it's that routine, the systems that provide the safety that allow you to look like an individual performing well.

[00:25:57] Daniel: Is, would that be fair to say?

[00:25:58] Jack R: That’s right. That's right. So I will give [00:26:00] you one example of, of one where it's, it captures your attention, but it's also a reset. So after, after a goal. So whether that be an opposition goal or our goal, you would see, um, Richmond forwards and Richmond backs and the mid and Richmond midfield all come together and stand in a circle.

[00:26:18] Jack R: And we call that the circle of trust. It was born from, um, a catch cry we had called Najin, which was brotherhood in, in, in First Nations language. Um, and all, and all First Nations meetings happen in a circle so that everyone stands eye to eye and has the same, or sits eye to eye, and has the same level of belonging at that.

[00:26:38] Jack R: So we would, after a goal, we would all stand in a circle and, and we were, we might be talking about nothing. Someone might be telling a joke, but it was just about coming together as a circle. But that was an actual reset for us. It gave everyone a sense of safety as well. Yeah. Okay. Like it's not standing in a circle as you all stand around with your arms down on your legs and stuff like that.

[00:26:56] Jack R: We put our arms around each other to make sure there's that element of safety. A physical touch, which [00:27:00] is that bit of that rewilding about being in a group in a bit of a pack. The circle represented us, everyone having the same voice and, and having the chance to, um, speak or, or, or be heard. And then there's just that, that just that, that reset of, of mindset, whether it be the high of a goal or a low of an, of an opposition goal.

[00:27:20] Daniel: That's great. And look, this might bring me to my next point, because I want to talk about your transition out of footy. And one of the things I've thought about, and having read your book as well, I mean, the experience of being in an elite football team, and especially, you know, the highs and lows of being near the bottom and then heading near the top.

[00:27:37] Daniel: But I mean, you have this incredible camaraderie. You put your bodies on the line, you put, it's all in, right? Like, footy is all in from the physicality to just your time, your families. And that must create such a strong unity. And then you retire and you enter ordinary life where it must be very hard to replace that.

[00:27:57] Daniel: I used to work with Vietnam vets [00:28:00] and do physiotherapy and I used to take a bunch of vets who were in their 50s and we used to exercise, do mindfulness meditation, do hydrotherapy and they just couldn't replace what they had back then with ordinary life and that was a sticking point and it was a problem as well as, you know, there were some benefits with that.

[00:28:16] Daniel: So I suppose my question is, you know, I'm fascinated about the transition of how you go from being in that environment to normal life. Yeah.

[00:28:24] Jack R: Um, I think probably I've filled my life with, with being busy. Yep. Um, but there will be a dawning time, I think, where all of a sudden I’m like footy's not real, not, not a real job for me anymore.

[00:28:36] Jack R: Like I still work in footy for, for Fox and work for, for Tazzy, but I won't play. Um, and, and, um, you probably yearn a little bit for that doing stuff with your mates. Yeah. And, and it doesn't have to be a physical exercise, but for me, that's a, that's an important one. So, um, like I've come home to Tassie for the last couple of months and [00:29:00] like, I go out and bike ride with my mates because it's, it's, it's quite healthy for me.

[00:29:05] Jack R: That's healthy to get out and go and do something active. But the coffee at the end of a, of a, of a, 60, 100K bike ride, like that's, that's the gold, like it's actually, that's the goal where you sit down and you've just done something together and, and you sit there and you talk absolute garbage for 20 minutes over a coffee, like that's, that's stuff, that's, that reminds me of footy and it's really important to me.

[00:29:29] Daniel: Yeah. So you've got, you're doing something that's hard and challenging and then there's relationships. Yeah. And connection as a result. So there's, there's mimicking similarities.

[00:29:38] Jack R: So, and so that's the thing. It's just maintaining something like that in, in your life. Um, but you also know, and, and like I, people ask me, why did you retire?

[00:29:48] Jack R: Like you could have played for another year and all that sort of stuff. I just started loving other stuff more than footy. Like I love footy. absolutely love footy. Um, hence why I probably still work in that capacity. I just love other stuff [00:30:00] more. I've got three kids. Um, it's quite a selfish job, football.

[00:30:05] Jack R: You can't go and do stuff that you might've normally done. Like you can't travel the world in the middle of the year and stuff, which I mean, people are very lucky to do that, but you can't do that. You've got to look after your body. You've got to look after your diet. Your partner or wife might have to look after the kids by themselves on a weekend where you've got to travel.

[00:30:26] Daniel: Yeah, or COVID where you have to move the whole family. Yeah, COVID was a bit of a curveball for everyone. Bad memories. I shouldn't have brought that up. Hey, um, so let's, let's move to the last bit, which is, you know, I'm fascinated about focus and attention and habits and systems in the workplace, obviously beyond footy, because this podcast is about helping people think about how can they build habits and practices to recapture their focus and reduce some of the distraction that stops them living the life they want to live.

[00:30:53] Daniel: Yeah. So one of the things we talked about. If that's alright is, um, Richmond ran on a very text [00:31:00] message based system because everything had to be very short, immediate, and week by week. I think you said if you focus more than the week ahead, you can get lost and distracted, right? But business doesn't quite work like that.

[00:31:11] Daniel: You need to have some longer term thinking, some medium term thinking, uh, and business in the sense of, you know, the jobs you're in don't have a regimented thinking. Turn up at this time and do this day by day. So I'm curious about what are some of the habits or practices that you're putting in place that are working for you to help you, I suppose, perform and focus in the stuff that you're doing, whether it be ALG or Fox 40 or, you know, TAS footy or whatever you're doing.

[00:31:38] Jack R: So I think it's about understanding what, what you've got or the skillset that you've developed over that period of time. So 17 years to develop skillsets, a reasonable amount of time. Um, granted it has changed a bit, but if you, if you can transfer systems across, like that's, that's, that's, that's a good way to do it.

[00:31:57] Jack R: So for me, it was learning how to run my diary, for [00:32:00] example. Now I have multiple email addresses. It's actually learning how to, how to run them, color code. Just, just little things like that that, that kept me in the same sort of flow as what I was when everything was run by someone else.

[00:32:15] Daniel: So as in sort of going from a completely open unstructured workflow to.

[00:32:20] Daniel: How do I reproduce some of the best of what got me moving? Is that what you mean?

[00:32:23] Jack R: Yeah, it is. It is. It is. So I think there's an element of, there will always be a big element of just getting up and going, which like can be really difficult. And I'll probably focus, not haven't focused on that as much lately.

[00:32:39] Jack R: Like I've come away. I've been down in Tassie now for a couple of months that actually allow yourself to maybe shift away from that for a little bit, just for a period of time to give yourself a bit of downtime.

[00:32:52] Daniel: And you're good at resting, aren't you? Yeah. That's one thing I've noticed about you. You like having fun.

[00:32:55] Daniel: Yeah. You like living life. Yeah. So it's not all that work for you, right?

[00:32:58] Jack R: Nah, it's not all that work. [00:33:00] And family's important.

[00:33:00] Daniel: And yeah, 100%. So you've got those rhythms and patterns.

[00:33:02] Jack R: Yeah. So then, but then there's a point in time where, and I'm probably transitioning through that at the moment, where I've got to pick back up again and go, right.

[00:33:08] Jack R: Yeah. Back in, back into, to, let's call it in season mode or work mode. Yeah.

[00:33:13] Daniel: In season. All right. Um. Hopefully without the injuries.

[00:33:16] Jack R: Yeah.

[00:33:16] Daniel: So that, that's important. Do, so do you have any, do you have any specific habits? Like one or two things that you think, if I'm going to get back in season.

[00:33:23] Jack R: Yeah.

[00:33:23] Daniel: In a non footy realm, are there any things that you think help you?

[00:33:27] Jack R: Yeah. Weekly planning is the one that you've taught me, uh, which I've, I've really enjoyed. Yeah.

[00:33:31] Daniel: I'll, I'll give you 10 bucks for saying that. Thanks. Yeah.

[00:33:33] Jack R: No, no stress. Um. Uh, but I think, yeah, so that weekly planning is just big rocks, little rocks. It's just trying to figure out what are the easy jobs you can knock off pretty quickly.

[00:33:45] Jack R: Um, the big rocks stay there and you sort of chip away at them a little bit. Yep.

[00:33:49] Daniel: So they're the, they're the goalposts for the week really, the five tasks that matter across whatever you're doing, yeah?

[00:33:55] Jack R: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes they go over a two week period, they might go over a [00:34:00] month period, but, yeah. It's just actually sort of putting them on paper because sometimes I reckon you get something coming on your inbox or something coming in your life and you're like, I do not want to look at that.

[00:34:08] Jack R: I'm just going to shun that away. So why you never get back to me? But um, but actually that, that element of sort of naming it to taming it where you just write it down. Then there's something about just ticking something off at least and you're like, right, I've done that. So breaking stuff down, kicking it off, and just making sure you're progressing the longer term things, yeah.

[00:34:27] Daniel: Hey, um, look, last question about, like, you know, life after footy, and then we'll do some rapid fire questions if that's alright. Um, like, life is for living, that's one of your mottos, right? Yeah. Well, that is the motto I read in your book. It was a great read, by the way. But, what are you passionate about now in this next season?

[00:34:42] Daniel: What do you love more than footy right now, you know, outside of family?

[00:34:45] Jack R: Um, Oh, I think Tasmania is a really big, important one for me. Um, and it's funny how like all my businesses sort of have, or interests of sort of transition back to Tassie.

[00:34:58] Jack R: Like we work here for [00:35:00] Authentic. I do some stuff for the footy club down here.

[00:35:03] Jack R: Um, even, even stuff that I've learned as I've been traveling around the state in the last couple of weeks. There's little stories that I want to tell on Fox that are Tassie like, it's that sense of home, um, which is, which is grounding for, for, for us as a family as well. And, and other than that, it's just, I'm, I'm just probably more excited about what the next period holds for, for, for, for me a little bit, but for more of us as a, as a family, like with young kids, they, they grow up pretty bloody fast.

[00:35:34] Jack R: Um, so like big milestones, like kids learning to ride a bike for the first time, or like Tom, Tommy, our youngest is close to walking and, and all that sort of stuff. Whereas, like they're the big milestones, you know, and then kids going to school and all that sort of jazz. So you, you get excited about Uh, everything that happens there and that's a big part of your life.

[00:35:55] Daniel: Now they're important. And what I love about what I know about your life is you actually do, you [00:36:00] really know what you value and you shape your time and your energy around people, around family, you know, and, and I think that's kept you well grounded. Yeah.

[00:36:10] Jack R: Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's, it's, yeah, it's, that's just reminded me of, like you asked me before recording about what's been the most fun thing.

[00:36:17] Jack R: And I said, Teaching Poppy how to ride a bike. But we built a fort, a tree fort the other day out the back of our place in Orford , out of an old, um, canopy sort of thing. That was a, it's like a bigger version of a bird, uh, aviary. Okay. For humans before a child, for humans. For humans. And we, and we, and we dismembered it, turned it into a tree fort, the bird box.

[00:36:37] Daniel: Not the human right, not the human. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:36:40] Jack R: And that, and that's. It's like, and Carly and I have been doing that like at seven o'clock at night when the kids have been in bed. That's right. We're like, right, let's get out and quickly just put a few things, we've got a couple of climbing things, we've got a swing on the tree, like that sort of stuff, like, has been great fun.

[00:36:53] Daniel: Yeah.

[00:36:54] Jack R: Great fun. It's good.

[00:36:54] Daniel: Yeah. And that's the stuff that you love.

[00:36:56] Jack R: Yeah. And you're, you're not building it for yourself or anything, as much as I get on there and have a play, but [00:37:00] you're building it for them to wake up the next day and go, Oh, awesome. There's a new bit to the, to the tree house.

[00:37:05] Daniel: I love it, Jack.

[00:37:05] Daniel: That's awesome. Hey look, we finish every episode, because this is part of a series where we're teaching people how to focus. Uh, we're giving theory, but we're giving people a practical activity. So at the end of it, um, you know, the first week we got people to go outside for five minutes and just focus and think about what they're seeing and what they're hearing.

[00:37:22] Daniel: The second week we got people to pick up a guitar or some type of high quality leisure activity that they've forgotten to do and put down their tech tools and applied the float as a kid. Oh, there you are. I won't make you do that. Although you could do a solo, but I'm going to spring this on you and I know I haven't given you any thought about this, but if you were to get our listeners to do one simple, small practical challenge that can help improve their life, you know, their focus, their attention or you know, to do something that matters.

[00:37:48] Daniel: Can you think of anything you'd encourage people to do? Yeah.

[00:37:51] Jack R: Yeah. Look, one thing we do, um. As part of our, uh, Authentic Leaders immersions is we do this, um, walk [00:38:00] from the top of Mount Fortescue down into Fortescue Bay. It's about an hour and you send people off sort of every sort of 200 meters, a couple of minutes between each other and you walk in silence.

[00:38:12] Jack R: Um, it's called forest bathing. Um, And it's funny how you do stuff, like if you walk in silence, how the most important things in your life or the life changing things bubble to the top. So it's sort of like as you, as you're walking down the hill, it's filtering your, your mind and you let your mind wander and, and, but you'll come around to the things that need to be addressed or want to be addressed.

[00:38:37] Jack R: Um, so I, I, I like just going for a walk in, in silence, which is not hard to do, but it's, it is difficult because you want to chuck your airpods in, or you want to go for a walk with a friend, or you want to go for a walk with a dog, or whatever. There's so many of these little distractions where you think, I can knock two jobs off at the same time.

[00:38:58] Jack R: Whereas sometimes it's [00:39:00] just, just going for a walk. is, is, is what you need and whether that be an hour or whether that be 10 minutes, 15 minutes. It's just actually finding that time for yourself. Mm.

[00:39:10] Daniel: And being present and just being there, right? Yep. Yeah. So I love it. Okay. Well, I want you to do some forest bathing.

[00:39:14] Daniel: So that does not mean taking your clothes off in the forest. Do not put that down to my podcast, but it does mean, uh, put your phone away. And actually just go for a walk. Look, it can be 10 minutes if you want to be soft like us, or if you want to be an elite athlete like Jack, go for an hour. But the point is, um, be silent, be present.

[00:39:31] Daniel: And remember those action triggers we've talked about. Think about when and where you're going to do it this week. Uh, you might even put it in your calendar and actually just do some forest bathing and think about what you need to give attention to. That's an awesome practice. So we're going to finish with quick, uh, can I just ask you seven super fast, quick questions and we'll finish.

[00:39:49] Daniel: All right. So, if you had two hours of guilt free space, how would you use that time?

[00:39:54] Jack R: I'd ride 60 k's. Yep.

[00:39:56] Daniel: Nice. What’s your favourite thing about being a dad?

[00:40:01] Jack R: Ah, that's a great question. Coming home after you've been away for a bit. Nice. I reckon if you, even if it's just a quick trip to town and your kids come running up to you.

[00:40:11] Daniel: Yep. Cool. If you could attribute success to one habit or mindset, what would that be?

[00:40:17] Jack R: Not looking at the outcome.

[00:40:20] Daniel: Sweet. Cool. What's one lesson that we can learn about life from footy?

[00:40:25] Jack R: The pair of relationships.

[00:40:30] Daniel: What's the downside to fame and success that you've experienced?

[00:40:36] Jack R: Um, I was going to say selfies, but

[00:40:39] Daniel: Oh, can I take one with you?

[00:40:42] Jack R: Um, Oh, I, I, yeah. Look, I think that there's a, a lot, a lot of people speak for you at some point in time. Like I know this is a bit of a long-winded answer, but anyone that's got some sort of notoriety or whether that be football, whatever, is sometimes seen as a [00:41:00] leader, um, or seen as supposed to be a role model.

[00:41:03] Jack R: There's a lot of times people are just. They're pretty normal.

[00:41:07] Daniel: Yeah. Actually, can I say on that point, I remember reading your book and you're saying that, uh, you know, you really struggled, but you'd be reading stuff about yourself and people would be saying what was going through your mind and what your motivations were and it was just unfair and hard.

[00:41:21] Jack R: Or wrong.

[00:41:22] Daniel: Yeah, that's wrong. Yeah. Yeah. No, fair enough. Uh, two more. What's one of the things you're most thankful for about life you've had?

[00:41:30] Jack R: Having a partner through the whole journey. No footy yet.

[00:41:35] Daniel: Yeah. Nice. And if you could change one thing about the world today, what would you love to change?

[00:41:43] Jack R: Oh, that's an interesting question.

[00:41:51] Jack R: Yeah, I don't know. Like, um, there's obviously a bunch of shit that's happening in the world at the moment that you'd like to fix straight away.

[00:41:59] Daniel: But what's a, what's a [00:42:00] Maybe something you could change.

[00:42:03] Jack R: I reckon just giving every kid a chance. That's probably one thing I'd want to do.Yeah.

[00:42:08] Jack R: Yeah. Yeah. So, I just think that there's people that just, due to their circumstances or, like it seems a bit unfair that wherever you're born, sometimes, the place you're born in puts you miles behind the eight ball, even before it's all begun.

[00:42:26] Jack R: I find that really difficult and that happens, obviously, overseas. We see it quite brutally on TV, but it also happens right here in Tassie, it happens in Australia, where sometimes you put in an environment, or you come into an environment where you might not be given your best chance. Yeah. I struggle with that a little bit, I reckon.

[00:42:46] Daniel: Love it. Great insight. Look, Jack, it has been an amazing pleasure. I've been so grateful for the times we've had and what I've learned from you, and you are an inspiration to me as well. Thanks so much for sharing [00:43:00] about productivity and focus and footy and riding bikes and building crazy sports. Thanks.

[00:43:04] Daniel: Uh, and, uh, yeah, look, thanks so much. Is there anything else you'd like to finish with?

[00:43:07] Jack R: No, I just noticed that my book's a hardcover and yours is a softcover. That means you've sold lots of copies to get to softcover.

[00:43:13] Daniel: Well, actually, I have a hardcover that no one bought, but, uh, softcover along with me. But no, it's a ripper book.

[00:43:18] Daniel: I really enjoyed it. And it's kind of weird reading about someone I'm friends with. And especially since I don't know anything about footy. Yeah. So firstly, I learned about footy and I was also, I loved your honesty and I love what I learned about you.

[00:43:30] Jack R: So that's, that's, that's why it's good having someone do the whole journey with you as well because they can recount everything as well.

[00:43:36] Jack R: Callie was a massive help with, with the book. So when I say massive, she did the most.

[00:43:43] Daniel: You're not meant to say that, are you?

[00:43:43] Jack R: That's okay. Yeah. It's our journey. It should have both our names on it.

[00:43:47] Daniel: Oh, that sounds good. Oh, anyway, look, good luck in all that you do and, uh, until next time, make space. Yeah.

[00:43:50] Jack R: Thank you for having me.

[00:43:54] Daniel: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:43:58] Daniel: A shout out to our sponsor, [00:44:00] Bulk Nutrients, the superheroes of the supplement world, helping us make space for gains, not pains. And yes. That's what happens when I rely on ChatGPT to write my pithy one liners. You can enjoy a 5 percent discount on protein powders and health supplements at bulknutrients.com.au

[00:44:17] Daniel: Just enter the coupon code SPACEMAKERS for a discount on orders over $45.

[00:44:24] Daniel: If you enjoyed this podcast, we would love you to follow us and leave a positive review, and help others make space by sharing this episode with a friend. Or subscribe to our blog post at spacemakers. au.

[00:44:39] Daniel: Until next time, make space.