[00:00:00] Daniel: Mhm. Hey there, Spacemakers. Welcome back to our podcast about making space for a meaningful life by doing less, not more. I'm Daniel Sih, your host, joined by my Spacemaking partner in crime, Matt Bain. If you're tuning in for the first time, we're exploring the fracturing of our attention and how to reclaim your focus.

[00:00:23] Daniel: If you notice that your concentration is waning and you're running to stand still, well, then you're in the right place. A special thank you to our amazing show sponsor, St. Luke's Health, our partner from my home state of Tasmania. They're not just ensuring health, they're inspiring us to become the healthiest island on the planet.

[00:00:44] INTRO VOICE: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:00:48] Daniel: Hey, welcome back folks to the Spacemakers. Spacemakers. My name's Daniel Sih. I'm back with the amazing Matt Bain, who recently told me he is the Batman to my Robin. Welcome, Matt.

[00:00:58] Matt: You know it. Great to be here. Thanks, Dan.

[00:01:00] Daniel: Hi, everyone. And, uh, look, this is our final episode in season one, where we've been talking about the fracturing of our attention and how to reclaim our focus for what really matters.

[00:01:09] Daniel: And we're going to talk about community. We're going to talk about the value of community. But you've heard the expression, it takes a village to raise a child, but what happens when the village becomes totally distracted, you know, multitasking, habitually connected, unable to think clearly, or going from one thing to the next, snapping everything on the run?

[00:01:27] Daniel: Uh, what happens when in our workplaces that we're going from one notification to another back to back meetings and can't concentrate at work? And what happens as parents when we send our kids outside so they can get fresh air and be with their community? And, and all they hear is crickets because all the other kids are inside playing PS5.

[00:01:44] Daniel: Uh, you know, these are hard conversations when we're in a culture and an environment where everyone is distracted. So how do we reclaim a sense of village for ourselves and for those we love around us? in order to reclaim our attention individually and collectively. So, Matt, [00:02:00] we're going to talk about the value of community.

[00:02:01] Daniel: This is going to be an invigorating conversation.

[00:02:03] Matt: This is our final episode. We made it. I know. I can't believe it. I can't believe it either. It's like we, it feels like only a month. I know. Yeah. So much. Yeah.

[00:02:10] Daniel: And look, it's, it's so good to have made it this far and to be, have been able to talk about so many things, uh, in the, along the journey, you and I have, you know, commented that we could probably run 20, 30 episodes on this one topic.

[00:02:21] Daniel: We won't, we've been disciplined not to. But we do feel like we've scratched the surface, haven't we?

[00:02:25] Matt: Yeah, just the surface really. There's so much more that should be said, could be said.

[00:02:28] Daniel: Uh, so we have committed to a season two. We've just made that decision recently, which is good. It's not going to be on the same topic.

[00:02:33] Daniel: It's probably going to be, well, we'll talk about it later. Uh, but, uh, we, we would love to ask something of you as our listeners, because you've followed us and journeyed with us for these 10 weeks, hopefully. So we really appreciate that. You know, that you've done that. Thank you. Uh, now rather than produce a lot of quantity, we wanted to aim for quality content, meaning we're going to produce one season and then another with maybe a two or three month gap in between rather than have a weekly podcast, but that's not so good for the [00:03:00] Google bots.

[00:03:00] Daniel: It's not so good for SEO. So the, the only way we can get this message out and, you know, help others experience this journey of recapturing their attention is if you help us. And so we would really love it if you would consider sharing this with three of your friends. Thanks. So, you know, have a conversation with some friends about this podcast, uh, put something on social media as you're mindlessly scrolling and being distracted, uh, you know, maybe text someone or email someone the link, uh, but basically I'd love you to actually think about who might you share it with.

[00:03:31] Daniel: It would just be a huge benefit. To us and a way of giving back.

[00:03:33] Matt: Hmm. Yeah, that'd be great. And like Dan said, very much appreciated. Mm.

[00:03:36] Daniel: And look, just one more reminder. We do have all of these on YouTube. We've got bonus episodes, and obviously a whole lot of other stuff. There is a weekly YouTube channel.

[00:03:44] Daniel: Uh, so please look at the show notes, click on the link. It's uh, youtube.com/at Daniel Sih. It's a bit of a mouthful. Uh, Sih being my last name, SIH. That's always been a nightmare when I'm trying to tell people my name on a phone conversation, uh, but please [00:04:00] click on the note. Not like Mel C from the Spice Girls.

[00:04:02] Daniel: So click on the link and, uh, and continue joining the conversation online. All right, so in our final episode we're talking about a village and what it means to include people, to be part of a community, uh, and really to invest in in person real life relationships to recapture your attention and to live a better life.

[00:04:23] Daniel: So I remember reading this book, I really like these guys, Dan and Chip Heath, uh, their first book that I read was called Switch, which is about how to change things when things are hard. I still think it's a great book. It's worth picking it up. We did that in book club. We did it in book club. That was actually one of our first books from many years ago.

[00:04:40] Daniel: I know. And, uh, and so these guys, they have a section about change, basically saying that we should rally the herd, meaning that if you can't shift your environment and if you can't involve people around you in the change, well then it's very hard to stick, which is what we kind of talked about a bit last week.

[00:04:55] Daniel: And their, their comment is that behavior is contagious. Do you remember some of that [00:05:00] research?

[00:05:00] Matt: Yeah, I do. I do. Um, it really stood out to me like back then and, and I've seen like verified many other, you know, papers and blog posts since. So yeah, so I'm guessing that the bit of research that you're referring to, and I wrote down the details because I wanted to get it right.

[00:05:12] Matt: Right. We prepared this one earlier folks. It was, so it was a study conducted by Dr. Nicholas Christakis. So important thing is it involved more than 12, 000 participants. So pretty big sample. Dr. Christakis, he found, again looking at a sample of 12, 000 plus people, that when someone becomes obese, the chances of that someone's friends also becoming obese triples, triples, like staggering.

[00:05:39] Daniel: And it didn't even matter if you do life regularly with that person. Didn't have to live with that person. They could even be in a different state. As long as you consider them a close friend and a connection, the chances of you becoming obese triple when your friends become obese. So that, that's how powerful social contagion is, isn't it?

[00:05:54] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Again, like going back to behavior, it's something there about, I observe people who are close to me, [00:06:00] as in, you know, as in I feel some affinity with them, not geographically or physically close, but I relate to them, I find them very relatable. And that somehow changes, um, my self perception, which changes my behavior, which results in this condition.

[00:06:13] Daniel: Yeah. Your schema of what a healthy body weight looks like shifts based on someone else shifting and therefore you're more likely to shift as well. Yeah. And that's in a whole lot of areas. Not just, you know, obviously weight loss and, and, uh, health that we see with heavy drinkers. Yeah. When, when college students flatmate with a heavy drinker, their grades go down because they start drinking more too.

[00:06:33] Daniel: Yeah. Uh, there was another study that, you know, when marriages are strong, other marriages around them seem to be strong, but then divorces kind of cascade into a string of divorces. And I've, I've seen that in some of my friendship circles. Yeah. Uh, even, and obviously tech norms is where we're heading. If we are in a culture where everyone snaps the food on Instagram and takes photos on Snapchat, if, if it's normative to actually be at a table and at dinner and, you know, spend half your time scrolling on the phone rather than talking to the person in front [00:07:00] of you.

[00:07:00] Daniel: Yeah. If you're in bed and your spouse or partner's, you know, scrolling the internet, well, then you're likely to do it on your phone as well, right? Oh, yeah. Look, we're, we're, we're herd animals in that sense.

[00:07:07] Matt: Look, I saw her back in the mid 2000s when seemingly every middle aged man started buying skinny jeans and those white sneakers.

[00:07:12] Matt: That was contagious.

[00:07:13] Daniel: Every everyone started doing it. I'm still wearing you can't see it on camera, but it's so true. It's so true. Isn't it funny how fashion trends like that. And so because of that, we need to be aware that we are in a social context and that, and that behavior is contagious, meaning that if you are surrounded in a workplace where everyone is like measuring success by how fast they can respond to a team's message or an email rather than whether they actually achieve an outcome, well then it's going to be hard to go against the inertia of that flow and actually do deep work, plan your week, disconnect from technology and actually achieve things that matter in the long run.

[00:07:47] Daniel: Because everyone's measuring performance by how quickly you responded.

[00:07:51] Matt: To kind of, I guess, ground it in our bigger picture, so we're saying behavior is contagious, which is also saying that the behavior of where and how we direct our attention is contagious. [00:08:00] Definitely, yeah.

[00:08:01] Daniel: And so, in order to almost counteract or support transformative change in, in line with your why, uh, you're gonna need to think about the community you surround yourself with and how you bring about people into your life.

[00:08:14] Daniel: So you can have real relationships in real time, uh, to complement and augment, let's say, social media relationships and digital activity, but not to, you know, not to lose in person community in the process.

[00:08:26] Matt: That's great. I'm, I'm like wondering though, because we've, again, like we've spent nine episodes now, I suppose, identifying problems and pitfalls and the distractions.

[00:08:37] Matt: Problems are easy. Yeah. Yeah. Problems are easy. Uh, it'd be great spending this last episode talking about solutions, particularly, you know, for this, our final episode, um, based on your experience, what are some solutions that you've, I suppose, experienced and lived through in relation to this?

[00:08:50] Daniel: Yeah, and look, I think, you know, we've talked about this from the beginning, that you're a very naturally relational person.

[00:08:54] Daniel: It's kind of like your default to be able to hang out with people and be connected, whereas it's not mine, being an introvert, being [00:09:00] task oriented. So I've actually had to put a lot more thought into how do, like, how do normal human beings kind of relate? How do people actually connect with each other?

[00:09:09] Daniel: And uh, yeah. And, and be social creatures, you know, so, so because of that, I think it's almost like Richard Bach says, I teach best what I most need to learn. I've actually had to learn community, if that makes sense, rather than just being a natural innate thing for me. And because of that, the, the big secret kind of take home message I would have taken from all my observations and creating communities and multiplying communities is that, um, it requires rhythms or predictable patterns, which is a term my brain uses, meaning to create rhythms or patterns where you're turning up to the same place at the same time in a committed way with a select group of people.

[00:09:43] Daniel: And then you can multiply and expand communities from that basis, at least in the Western context. Okay. She's different than the East. Uh, so let me give a story to explain what I mean very practically by that. Sounds good. Um, so when we first came to Tasmania, uh, my wife and I were fairly newly married, didn't have kids at the time.

[00:09:59] Daniel: We're now, [00:10:00] um, kind of mid twenties and we didn't have any family, but we loved the place and we knew we needed to find kind of friends and community. Uh, so we connected with a church community and a bunch of people would meet every Sunday night at a pub and they would simply drink. chat and, and connect.

[00:10:16] Daniel: And I was chatting with a guy who was involved in this kind of rhythm of meeting at the pub. And he said to me, he gave me some advice. He basically said, look, if you want to make this work, you have to turn up every week. I mean, you don't have to, obviously, but if you want to build a community, if you turn up every week, something will happen.

[00:10:31] Daniel: You'll, you'll go from meeting the locals to being a local. And I said to him, well, the problem is I don't like pubs. Like, I mean, I'm half Chinese and I actually can't process alcohol very well. So I've had half a beer. I feel sick. Right. So, and, and I don't really love the social kind of interaction of it's just, I don't mind them, they're not my real thing, right?

[00:10:49] Daniel: And yet that's where this kind of community was meeting and I liked the people and I thought, well, let's, let's learn and I'll actually follow this person's advice. Same guy who, uh, got us [00:11:00] stamping, uh, letters that we talked about in episode one.

[00:11:03] Matt: Great stamping critique. Yeah.

[00:11:04] Daniel: Yeah. So thank you, Daz. But, um, yeah.

[00:11:06] Daniel: So I turned up and so we came and we turned up. We came at six o'clock, got a drink, stayed for about two hours and just talked with people, went home. There was nothing spectacular about it. I found it hard to go there, but I also enjoyed the connection with people that I met. But then we did it the week after.

[00:11:22] Daniel: And we did it the week after. And we did it the week after. And we did it for five years. And, uh, and I don't like pubs. Uh, and yet it was a commitment to community. And the thing that I learned through that period of time is, is an amazing thing to have a predictable pattern that is repeatable and easy to communicate.

[00:11:40] Daniel: Meaning I would meet people as a physiotherapist in the hospital and I would say, hey, you know, we had a good conversation. Do you want to hang out? And they'd be, yeah, that'd be good. I'd be like, I'm at the pub at six o'clock. Every Sunday night, the 15, 20 of us who were at the pub at six o'clock every Sunday night said that to our friends.

[00:11:59] Daniel: And so [00:12:00] people would just kind of flipped in and flipped out and we had like hundreds of people who just were part of the broader life of this community. Some came once every three months, some came every few weeks. So because there was a group of people who would turn up even if they didn't want to. It created community.

[00:12:15] Daniel: And it was life changing. A lot of my best friends came out of that time. Yeah. And that principle of creating a pattern, making it repeatable and making it accessible for others to join has been the secret for me both creating communities in my own life but also helping others multiply communities really all around the world.

[00:12:31] Matt: Simple, repeatable pattern, but then he still chose to do the reps going back to last week's episode.

[00:12:35] Daniel: Still did the reps.

[00:12:36] Daniel: Still did the reps. Irony is I still can't drink beer and not feel sick. No. I don't mind pubs, but I don't love them, but I love the community that was formed. Yeah. And the only reason we changed that pattern is we had one child and that was okay.

[00:12:48] Daniel: You know, it was the kind of, it was a friendly pub so we could put the baby in the car seat under the table. But when we had two kids, it was just getting unruly. And a few of our friends who'd done this journey with us had younger kids as well and it [00:13:00] wasn't a place for them. So we created a pattern by meeting at the park on a regular basis and then years later I created a pattern by having a dinner every Wednesday night.

[00:13:08] Daniel: I've created lots of different patterns in my life and then others have created patterns that I've been involved in and it's been a great way to actually create a family environment where our kids have real community, real connection, and where we do as well, which supports what we do online. But it's not replaced by online activity.

[00:13:24] Matt: And just like to take it back a step, like when we use these big kind of blanket terms like connection, really you could say that underneath that blanket term is a whole bunch of values that are tied up to your why. And so the other people primarily, you know, who you're connecting with in this way, they, I assume, also had like a similar bunch of values and a similar kind of why.

[00:13:42] Daniel: Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, I do know now through that process that community is definitely one of my core values. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and so. Um, even though I'm an introvert and even though I find it hard to rock up, you know, like let's say even now we have a weekly dinner, I'll turn up, uh, we started the dinner and then it passed on to someone else and now [00:14:00] we're just participants in it.

[00:14:01] Daniel: But I'll turn up, I'll sit in the car and my wife will often like see me and she'll be like, you can have 10 minutes and I'll go for a walk by myself. Yeah. I'll muster the courage. And then I'll walk into the 25 people who are eating dinner with, who I care deeply about, and who are my community. And I always walk out feeling fuller than I did before I walked in.

[00:14:20] Daniel: And they're my go to people when life is tough. They're my go to people when my kids need some support. But it's still hard to walk into the room.

[00:14:28] Matt: Yeah. Okay. That's great. That's like, that's a really good example, isn't it? Of a greater yes in terms of where you're going to direct your attention. Eclipses the smaller no's.

[00:14:37] Matt: No, I don't really want to see people. No, I'm not really that extroverted. I'm not naturally a gregarious, but yes, I value these people. So I will direct my attention that way.

[00:14:46] Daniel: Yeah. And look, we all have this depending on our personality type. So, I mean, for me, uh, physical exercise is another core value for me.

[00:14:53] Daniel: So I really value exercise in a whole lot of ways. But I find it energizing. I feel better after [00:15:00] exercise. And if I don't exercise, I get pain. I wake up in the middle of the night. I feel terrible. I could just, I just get fidgety, right? So there's kind of like a carrot and a stick that just naturally draws me to exercise.

[00:15:09] Daniel: My wife is completely the opposite. She values exercise. But there's no carrot or stick. She feels fine if she doesn't exercise and she doesn't particularly enjoy it. Uh, so just like I have to take a breath and turn up to dinner on a regular basis because I'm not a social creature by nature, my wife has to take a breath and turn up and do her reps and she goes to the gym, she exercises on a regular basis.

[00:15:28] Daniel: Now, again, she values it and she does it because it's meaningful, it's good for her, it's good for our family. But, uh, again, there's not an intrinsic driver, so we all have to do the reps somewhere in a way that's painful. One of the big lessons I've, I've learned actually through that process is this idea of if you want to create community, at least in the West, so what I mean by that is we're very individualized, we don't have natural connections, you know, if we, if we just follow our natural kind of environment, we could easily spend all of our time alone, which is why you see so many people [00:16:00] living alone and only connecting through social media.

[00:16:03] Daniel: So what I've noticed is in the West, if we want to have meaningful, real community and regular connections with people in our lives, well then you actually have to make a sacrifice to give your calendar, to submit your own individual calendar. To the schedule of the community. So what I mean by that is to learn to say, okay, this group of people, if we're going to be friends and connect in a deep way, we're going to have to have book club every quarter like we talked about last time, or we're going to have to go to the pub every week.

[00:16:28] Daniel: And if I don't feel like it, or if a better option comes up, well, the commitment that we made is we're going to turn up to this regular, mundane rhythm because we're gonna be part of a community rather than just follow our heart and do what feels right in the moment. Because if everyone does that, you can't get community.

[00:16:45] Daniel: You have to have a core group of people who create an environment where other people can then flip in and out.

[00:16:49] Matt: It makes complete sense. But uh, and it sounds easy to some degree but I know um, at least when I look around, it's a big call. As in, it's a hard, it's a hard thing to do when so many people want to [00:17:00] understandably keep their options open.

[00:17:02] Daniel: What's the super hard thing, uh and, and it's hard because it only works if then you put a few rhythms in place as a commitment and then you start saying no to all the other pressures that come your way. You know and again you have to make these constant decisions to declutter your life and make space in other areas in order to stay focused on some of the core things that you believe are important.

[00:17:20] Daniel: Now I'm talking about community but that could apply as a principle for almost anything that is your greater why.

[00:17:25] Matt: Yeah, I like that. Um, to me it still sounds almost a little bit countercultural because I still feel like the primary messaging is all about I can have it all.

[00:17:33] Daniel: Yeah, follow your heart, have it all, keep your options open, you do you, and you know, the worst thing we can do is actually have to submit that.

[00:17:43] Daniel: or put down any of our self expression for an institution or a group. So it's against our entire cultural framework that actually the way to experience true freedom is to give up your personal freedoms and to build true relationships over time in a committed cause. Yeah. As [00:18:00] opposed to what we're told, which is actually the way to find freedom is to reject all authority, to get rid of institutions, get rid of clubs, don't follow anyone else's pattern.

[00:18:09] Daniel: Follow your heart. Yeah. But it doesn't work for community.

[00:18:12] Matt: Yeah. Um, the only thing that I'd add to that is that it's, it's, it's to try to emphasize that we voluntarily, if you like, we voluntarily to use your term, submitting our calendar and our time. So again, no one's making me do it. It's a choice that I voluntarily walk into.

[00:18:26] Matt: For a greater yes. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For a greater yes. And even if I thought, you know, I'm not going to volunteer my autonomy, I'm not, I'm not going to submit to any other calendar or external demand. In reality, I'm still being to some degree nudged. Engineered, directed to someone's schedule somehow, you know, absolutely.

[00:18:43] Daniel: And that's the kind of fallacy of what it looks like if you don't have those rhythms and patterns. Yeah, we talked about it with work with the conversation with Tim Hines and Microsoft teams, that teams that actually uh, have a playbook and a common way of working and a common set of tools and a common structure for what it looks like to do [00:19:00] knowledge work, end up having more creativity and freedom to do knowledge work in a mature way, rather than if there's no rules, you simply just go from one notification to the next and all your job really is, is pushing emails around.

[00:19:10] Matt: Yeah.

[00:19:11] Daniel: So that kind of freedom, yeah, it's freedom, but it doesn't lead to anything meaningful. And I think that plays out across work and life. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So look, Matt, this is our last pause in our episode. Uh, we like to give people, you know, 30 seconds of space. Just to reflect on what we've said, what might it look like for you to create a predictable pattern or a rhythm in your life to either find a group of people that you can connect with.

[00:19:34] Daniel: So you have to give up your calendar to join the rhythms of that community. Or if you're someone like myself and you like starting stuff, or you know, how can you create a pattern with a few people and actually invite others in? So maybe have a pause, reflect on those types of ideas. What's one thing that stands out to you?

[00:19:50] Daniel: And is there anything that you could do about it?[00:20:00]

[00:20:36] Daniel: So it was good to have some space. I always value that. Uh, hey, we launched the podcast through one of our sponsors, St. Luke's, and we had this super fun party, uh, with lots of people at their health hub, uh, in the center of Hobart. So I had a great conversation with one of the leaders from St. Luke's about community.

[00:20:53] Daniel: And how St. Luke's is helping community.

[00:20:55] Matt: Sounds good.

[00:20:59] Daniel: I'm really [00:21:00] excited to have Kate Danman here from St. Luke's, who heads up St. Luke's in the South, including Hobart and the new wellness hub. And I've got to have a chat with you about how we met and about making space and why you're sponsoring the podcast. Yeah, lovely. So we first met because I was invited to speak about raising tech healthy kids.

[00:21:18] Daniel: So that's about kids and technology. And you invite speakers to come.

[00:21:25] Kate: Yeah, we do. It's, um, really part of that educating and sharing with the entire community. And the more we know, the more we can make better choices. Yeah. So something like your book to help parents make a difference with how we raise our youth and then that creates a whole new community and understanding.

[00:21:44] Kate: It was fantastic. It was really exciting to have you in there.

[00:21:47] Daniel: And you actually read my first book, Spacemaker, isn't it?

[00:21:49] Kate: I sure did. Yeah. And we had a chat about, well, we had a few coffees around making space.

[00:21:55] Daniel: Yes. And what do you like about that or what connects with you?

[00:21:57] Kate: I think we live such [00:22:00] busy lives, um, and we can really get stuck in that mindset of, you know, I just don't have time to do anything and I feel trapped and then we're exhausted and the next thing you know you're sitting on your phone and you kill 30 minutes scrolling at absolute nonsense.

[00:22:17] Kate: And I think for me what I loved about your book is we really, it's purposeful actions and decisions along the way. Like if I want to make a choice to look and scroll on my phone, it's like, I'm not going to waste 10 minutes and that's a choice and that's fine because it might be debriefing or it might be actually I'm going to put that down and talk to someone or go and walk my dog and not get caught having a morning coffee and you know looking at Facebook or something for, for too long.

[00:22:47] Kate: So I really liked that it it sort of talks a lot about making smarter decisions and purposeful decisions that suit your lifestyle but also help you, I don't know, live happier.

[00:22:58] Daniel: I [00:23:00] love hearing, you know, people like yourself say that because that's what it's about to try to help people think about how to live intentionally and how to live the life you want to live.

[00:23:06] Daniel: And I know you've implemented a whole lot. And I know you have a super busy role, like you do a whole lot with St. Luke's. And one of those, so, the idea behind this role is you head up the Wellness Hub, which I think is the coolest place. It's a building in the center of Hobart, which is like Kayla designed, architecturally designed to be a hub to help the community rather than just be officers. Yeah. So, tell me about that and how it's helping the community.

[00:23:30] Kate: So it created, basically, it's a whole space for the community and to help everyone have a better opportunity to have greater health and well being. So what it's allowed us to do is talk to the community and actually work collaboratively with the community and hear what they wanted, wanted, you know, it's all well and good for us to think we're the experts, but we're not.

[00:23:54] Kate: So we invited the community in well before we opened and we were told we want. [00:24:00] We want to have access to, you know, cheap and easy access to movement classes. So we do things like yoga and Pilates and walking groups during dedicated times, like before work or during lunch times, which I think is really important.

[00:24:16] Kate: It helps people step away.

[00:24:17] Daniel: I sleep in the morning, so you might get me that lunch time, but not at six in the morning.

[00:24:22] Kate: That's fine. It's actually 7.30. Much more reasonable. Um, we had line dancing, you know, it's like really random things, but the community connected to it. It was really great. Uh, what else the wellness hub has allowed us to do is work with other people and organizations that are doing incredible things in their own field.

[00:24:44] Kate: So people like you, uh, helping us educate and learn different ways. And we can, we can do that. them work together to host different events or information sessions. We've got our health navigators there that, you [00:25:00] know, have reached out to, I think, probably every health service provider in the South and learnt what they do and what availabilities they have.

[00:25:09] Kate: So if anyone's struggling to do anything like, you know, So they want to find a GP that's taking new patients or need to help their elderly grandparent and they can't be there, they sell someone home nursing, anything at all, they can come to these guys and learn what's available. Um, yeah, I think it's great.

[00:25:30] Kate: Just about enabling and empowering, I guess.

[00:25:32] Daniel: I think it's great.

[00:25:33] Kate: And it's for everybody. It's not just our members. It is everyone. Absolutely for everybody.

[00:25:39] Daniel: That's true, isn't it? So there's the space, like I've walked in and there's this cool machine, I don't even know what we call it, where it takes your blood pressure.

[00:25:46] Daniel: Yeah. And you stand up and you work out how tall you are and basically says, you know, eat less and get fitter. It's great. I really liked it. Um, and so look, I love that St Luke's has sponsored the podcast. I love that [00:26:00] you, yeah, I don't hear you talk a lot about insurance. I hear you talk a lot about health and supporting the community and basically creating a healthier Tasmania.

[00:26:08] Daniel: Is that right?

[00:26:09] Kate: It's really true. Um, St. Luke’s has this really lofty vision. We want to make Tasmania the healthiest island on the planet. You cannot achieve that by working on our own, you have to work with our community and people like you and other like minded organizations and we have to do, we have to look after everyone.

[00:26:31] Kate: Um, so we are, we do health insurance obviously and we do that really well and we have amazing customer care centers and people that will look after that side of our business, but

[00:26:41] Daniel: I'm a member. I love it. Excellent. I like what you do. Yeah.

[00:26:45] Kate: I was a member before I started working, uh, here, it was part of why I did it.

[00:26:49] Kate: really came over. But yeah, look, it's about helping everyone. We want to make a real difference, a real change, something really powerful.

[00:26:55] Daniel: I love it. And hopefully this podcast will be a small part of helping educate [00:27:00] Tasmanians and, you know, the global community. We punch above our weight in Tassie. We often say that.

[00:27:04] Daniel: Yeah, we do. But, um, yeah, look, thanks again for being a sponsor and thanks for the vision that you have for community.

[00:27:09] Kate: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Daniel. It's been wonderful.

[00:27:21] Daniel: Okay. So Matt, let's go back into this conversation around community and let's get practical. Okay. So this whole thing about community is really about two things that if you're struggling with, let's say, moderate digital overuse and you want to change your habits, it's very hard to do that unless you're in a community that is supporting you.

[00:27:39] Daniel: So there's that sense where you need people around you to help you transition out of bad behaviors into something new. The other aspect is that community in itself has great value. The research is really clear that people who connect regularly with people in real time, in real warm bodied communities, uh, who have lots of connections and who meet regularly with others as a community, they live longer, they're [00:28:00] happier, they're healthier.

[00:28:01] Daniel: The Susan Pinker research is fantastic on this. She wrote a book called The Village Effect. She's a social neuroscientist, which I think is a cool term. And she basically put up a huge study that said that, you know, breathing fresh air makes you live longer, um, treating hypertension makes you live longer.

[00:28:17] Daniel: Reducing alcohol intake if you're a heavy drinker or giving up smoking helps you live longer. But the, the research longitudinal studies say that the one big thing that will make you live longer than anything else is having regular connections with people you love. Susan Pinker even said it's more important or at least as important to be in connection with people in real time, in real place, than as giving up a pack a day of cigarettes.

[00:28:40] Daniel: Wow. We need to get back to that message. So part of the reason we want people to have community is because it helps us to actually reframe and live back, uh, in a community where your attention is around other people, not just yourself. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, with that in mind, uh, let's give some kind of ideas.

[00:28:56] Daniel: How can you do it? Because I talk about going to the pub. That's just one example, right? Yeah. [00:29:00] The Spacemakers, uh, proudly supporting pubs across Australia.

[00:29:04] Matt: Yeah. So a couple of ideas around this. Um, first of all, to pick up on a point that we've made repeatedly over the course of this season, you want to start off doable, which may mean like, oh, small, achievable.

[00:29:15] Matt: That's the first thing. So I think if you've got like no interest, for example, in say something like, so if you've got zip interest entirely in hanging out in environment like a pub, or if you've got zip interest in doing anything that involves like some pretty heavy duty exercise like CrossFit, then don't set yourself up for failure by trying to, you know, find or join or start a community that centers around those things.

[00:29:34] Matt: Number one, start easy. Number two, um, you don't have to start something from scratch. So maybe you are more inclined to be like a, a Dan Sih That's SIH personality where you can start something up like a, like a, a book club. Right. So you, it's my personality. Yeah. Yeah. Get an I, I start something. That's okay.

[00:29:49] Matt: You do you. It's fine. So some people are gonna be inclined that way, but other people are probably gonna be more joiners. Yeah. So again, don't feel like you've gotta be a creator. If you're more a joiner, don't feel like you've gotta join something if you're more of a creator. [00:30:00] Uh, and then, yeah, number three.

[00:30:02] Matt: Given everything that we talked about around trying to reduce digital distractions, like low grade digital distractions, it'd be ideal if this particular community or village, uh, doesn't revolve around that, or isn't like based or predicated, their thing isn't predicated upon digital devices.

[00:30:18] Daniel: That's the hard bit, right?

[00:30:19] Daniel: Because almost, yeah. A lot of communities are, even if they don't intend to be, and that's where it does take a bit of courage. Yeah. Now, even when we started a dinner, we started a dinner when our kids were young. We didn't have tech around the table, and there was a kind of an unspoken or unwritten ground rule that we just don't use tech around the table.

[00:30:35] Daniel: So we had a weekly dinner and our neighbours would come and others would join. Yeah. But then our kids became teens and they brought a few teen friends and they suddenly, I realized, hang on, now we're spending all of our time looking at YouTube clips at dinner. So I actually had to have some hard conversations, which is like, hey, the table is a non digital space.

[00:30:51] Daniel: In fact, big dinner generally is a non digital space. We definitely don't want to pull out our phones. And so, you know, if a friend comes once, we'll then, we'll do it. We'll just [00:31:00] accept it happens. But if they come back, we go, we actually have to have that conversation and say, Hey, this is a space where we don't use our phones.

[00:31:05] Matt: That's hard. Yeah. So I hear you saying you probably have to be vigilant.

[00:31:06] Daniel: You have to be vigilant. Otherwise we'll sneak in, in a relational way, in a kind of thoughtful way. Yeah. But you might actually have to not just go with the flow, you might have to shape the path when it comes to digital free spaces.

[00:31:19] Matt: But I probably still submit that there are some particular, you know, pastimes and communities that are built around activities that it's really hard to reconcile with digital technology. Like say, for example, extreme exercise. Martial arts. Underwater hockey. Underwater hockey. Yeah, sure. That's exactly where I was going.

[00:31:34] Matt: Yeah. So underwater hockey is one. Yeah. Yeah. Great.  

[00:31:37] Daniel: So we're going to increase that. No, that makes sense. And actually, I would say, you know, generally, if you want to create a rhythm of community, you either want to create it around affinity. So relationships and social connection or activity. So like sports or, you know, clubs or things like that.

[00:31:50] Daniel: So actually probably activity based communities are probably less inclined to be digitally distracted.

[00:31:58] Matt: Yeah.

[00:31:58] Daniel: So give me some examples just [00:32:00] to finish with a few practical examples if people want to think about how might they join a community for those who are more, I suppose, inclined towards physical activity and they want to do something of that nature.

[00:32:09] Matt: The obvious ones are like joining something like a CrossFit box or like doing a martial art. So again, martial arts, classically, there's very little, uh, there's very little room or space for digital devices when you're sparring or rolling with someone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that, so that's if you're kind of like, and again, there are so many options out there that already exist.

[00:32:25] Matt: Or team sport, just any team sport, surely. Yeah. Sure. 40 soccer. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Like, like, you know, bike riding with people, like all, all, all, all that kind of stuff. Um, I know, um, I was talking to someone who works at a game shop just recently, and they were talking about the massive resurgence in, um, like things like dungeons and dragons.

[00:32:41] Matt: So old school, like, role playing games. Where courtesy of the Stranger Things phenomenon. The Stranger Thing phenomenon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, like those clubs are already in existence. They're already out there. They're fairly easy to join. And again, from what I understand, again, I can't pretend that I'm talking from firsthand experience.

[00:32:57] Matt: There's, there's really no ongoing [00:33:00] regular, um, reliance upon digital technology. Yeah. It's still very much like book based old school, which is, yeah, fantastic.

[00:33:06] Daniel: Oh, I love board games. There's a huge array of board games. If you're stuck on Monopoly and Pictionary, get beyond that because it's been another 30 years of great board games and have a look.

[00:33:14] Daniel: Yeah. They're fantastic. Yeah. Um, you brew beer, right? That's, that's your thing.

[00:33:17] Matt: Oh yeah. I do, like not as much as I used to and not as much as I like to, um, but probably about as much as I should. So that's like, that's a really good example of a craft. I think it's communal, right? Yeah. So part of the appeal was doing a, it was a regular rhythm, uh, and it involved myself and three other guys who were regulars.

[00:33:31] Matt: And then a bit like your pub example, we had a pretty steady stream of guest, we call them guest brewers will come along. Um, so yeah, but I think you can put that under the bucket of craft. So we were all making something. We weren't just consuming something. We're actually making something together and that's another element again in terms of the positive payoffs of villages and communities.

[00:33:47] Matt: If you're actually creating or crafting something you're adding as opposed to just consuming, I think that adds a special element as well.

[00:33:53] Daniel: Well, I mean, you reminded me, like, honestly, one of the ways I create community is I start businesses with people I really like, uh, [00:34:00] and seriously, we had this conversation.

[00:34:01] Daniel: Someone said to me years ago, I should start a podcast. And I reflected on it. I thought about the work and the money and the effort, and it just didn't stack up. And then I thought a few years later, well, it's late last year. Actually, I want to spend more time with my friends, with you, with Tim, with others.

[00:34:16] Daniel: And I find it easier to connect when I'm doing stuff like a project together. So if you'll do a project with me like this podcast, well then I've got my why. Do you know what I mean? And that's kind of cool. That's great.

[00:34:25] Matt: I'm flattered to be bundled. Bundled by you again. Bundled, I can make money and connect with a friend.

[00:34:31] Daniel: How good's that? Thanks, Matt. But seriously, like you might be a worker, you might be a doer and actually sometimes you can actually do stuff with others. Some of my best friendships have been building retaining walls with neighbours and, and starting businesses and, and being involved in activities that I had to do, but hey, what a great way to do it with someone alongside of me.

[00:34:51] Daniel: So there's really no limitations. The key is to be a little intentional in it and create rhythms and patterns. where you're connecting and not filling that space with kind of [00:35:00] complete digital activity.

[00:35:00] Matt: Yeah. And sorry, let's just go back a step. Great point. One thing we haven't really talked about much, uh, the kind of communities or villages that exist for things like such as spiritual nourishment and also giving back to the community, civil duty, giving something back.

[00:35:15] Matt: That's right.

[00:35:16] Daniel: You and I have a church background, so we've built church communities. I remember building a community with a bunch of Hazara Afghani refugees because we kick soccer balls regularly with them and they added tremendously to our life and we got to add to their life, but that was kind of a spiritual service based pursuit.

[00:35:32] Daniel: So there's been those types of patterns in my life and your life as well. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So the point of this whole conversation is be creative, pick a rhythm. Think about, you know, what type of activity or what type of community that you might want to join or start and allow that to fill your life up with something meaningful, which is, you know, real, real time people and relationships.

[00:35:54] Daniel: So we're at the end. This is the end of the first season. We really hope you've liked it. I mean, it's a bit of a summary. It's [00:36:00] all been about the fracturing of our attention and how to reclaim our focus, uh, really the premise. Being that, you know, why can't we watch a movie without reaching for our phone anymore?

[00:36:10] Daniel: Uh, why can't we head to work and do any real work because we're so distracted with communications? Uh, why are we struggling to have any silence or space in our life, uh, because we're filling it up with low grade digital activities? Why are we maybe filling our life with more and more digital time at the expense of relationships, exercise, meaningful hobbies, pursuits, you know, all the other breadths and depths of things that make life?

[00:36:33] Daniel: And so again, it's not, uh, it's never been a conversation about rejecting the benefits of technology, but just recognizing that if we overcook some tools, and if we lose our own ability to focus and think about what matters most, we can end up being a bit lost.

[00:36:50] Matt: Yeah, yeah. Really good to reemphasize that point like you did around we aren't adding anti technology.

[00:36:56] Daniel: No, absolutely not. You know, the whole emphasis or premise is that tech is useful [00:37:00] and that we need it. It's just that we're overcooking it at the expense of some things that are best done offline. So, with that in mind, we've talked about a heap of stuff. We talked about the science of attention, the top and bottom down attentional systems.

[00:37:12] Daniel: We've talked about, you know, attention and focus on the footy field with Jack Riewoldt. We talked about learning how to unhear noise with our conversation with Dr. Julia Vidal. Talked about Microsoft Teams and notifications with Tim Hines, and then you and I have been riffing on a whole lot of different topics around a particular framework, which is around how do you think about your greater purpose or the things that you want to give attention to?

[00:37:36] Daniel: How do you remove the environment of distractions, uh, particularly digital tech that kind of vie for your attention? How do you make the hard habit changes or behavioral changes needed to then fill that space or fill the void so that the types of things you do day by day are meaningful, are relational and align with the person you want to be.

[00:37:58] Daniel: Yes. That's a great summary. It's been our, [00:38:00] that's been our season. What's been one kind of take home for you from everything we've talked about? Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Great question. The whole, the whole season.

[00:38:08] Matt: Sure. Uh, the one thing, the one thing that I've been really struck by and I've started, I think, as I mentioned, I've, since we first spoke about it.

[00:38:16] Matt: I've been practicing it more rigorously, and that is silence. Yeah. So silence and solitude. And, uh, I can honestly say it's gotten easier with time, even though it's only like been a couple of weeks. But every, every morning now, uh, I'm doing my five minutes of silence, um, accompanied with a journal in case anything kind of comes to me.

[00:38:39] Matt: What is the, either the drive or the benefit of that? Uh, the driver is that it's so, it's so kind of contrary to my natural state where I just thrive on getting stimulation and information in pretty constantly.

[00:38:50] Daniel: Fine. Hmm.

[00:38:51] Matt: So it's difficult for me to turn all that stuff down and just sit with my thoughts.

[00:38:57] Matt: But I found when I do, when I've had cause to do [00:39:00] that, I get, like I think we talked about before, almost like these small moments of clarity. It's almost like I'm turning down these other voices that I've voluntarily let in and I start to hear more clearly what it is that I should be doing and focusing on.

[00:39:11] Daniel: Right.

[00:39:12] Matt: So that's, yeah, so that's both the drive is that I've got very little of that silence and solitude in my life other than this time that I have to intentionally carve out for it. So my why. My why is, I want that, I want that space, I want that solitude, I want that, that clarity, that kind of clear field for things to, I think the term I used before was kind of sift through and down.

[00:39:30] Matt: Great. That's a great, great habit. Yeah. It's so far so good. Yeah. And you can build on that. How about you?

[00:39:34] Daniel: Yeah. Uh, look, two things. One, one would be just, you know. We haven't talked about this a lot. I've really reflected on the value of reading books. Now, I've always been a reader, so it's not like that's, that's not a hard, hard habit to build, but I've just started to be more intentional in reading physical paper based books, both fiction and non fiction.

[00:39:54] Daniel: I just can see that as being such a powerful way of retraining my mind and [00:40:00] helping me to broaden my thinking and to kind of just get into a particular place and push out all the other noise. So that's, that's been one thing that's been useful. The other one I mentioned last episode, which is a lot harder for me, which is to really train myself to give more attention to people who matter in my life, uh, to, to pay attention to people's emotions, their, their needs, to, to shift from one kind of work or task zone to the people around me.

[00:40:26] Daniel: And that's going to be a journey I'm going to practice for the next, you know, week. 10 years. Uh, but I, I can see the benefits. Well, not just the benefits, I can see it's possible for, for my brain to change and for my attention to shift so that I'm giving attention to people I care about more and more and more.

[00:40:43] Matt: Yeah. That's a worthy ambition.

[00:40:45] Daniel: So look, if it helps just to finish, we really hope that you've gotten something out of this, that not only have you learned something, but you've put something into practice, which is what we care about at The Spacemakers. So if it helps, we have put together a downloadable PDF, which summarizes

[00:40:59] Daniel: The 10 [00:41:00] practical steps that we've gone through in this season. Uh, we talk about the process, the, the, the kind of the moving from your why to removing distractions to filling the void. And if you want to go through that kind of process step by step, well then we encourage you to download that PDF. Uh, if you haven't done the activities or you see value in this.

[00:41:19] Daniel: We'll then go through the worksheet and continue the process until you find that you're at a place where you have some new habits, uh, where you've got less distraction and where you have more attention. So you can download that at spacemakers. au forward slash S1 for season one. So that's spacemakers.

[00:41:37] Daniel: au forward slash S1 and you'll see that in the show notes. But we're at the end of our season, do you want to give a sneak preview for next season which we are in process of reflecting on? What are we going to talk about?

[00:41:50] Matt: So we've been discussing that we found ourselves in a company of a lot of people that are reaching this stage in life, cool, like, you know, late thirties, forties, somewhere around like midlife classically, where [00:42:00] they feel that there's some change that has to be made doing what they've always done.

[00:42:05] Matt: Is no longer bringing them the same, I suppose, level of success as it has in the past, or maybe their definition or idea of what success constitutes has also changed. So they're looking for a new destination and they're looking for a bit of a roadmap as to how to get there. Does that make sense? So we're talking about pivots.

[00:42:21] Matt: We're talking about transitions. We're talking about. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:25] Daniel: And they're really important. They're hard to navigate. Transition period. You and I have had a number in our life, uh, and I coach people on a regular basis who come to me and essentially what they're saying is, I'm trying to work out what type of life I want to live and how I get from where I am to where I want to be.

[00:42:39] Daniel: But there's kind of a whole lot of process that's needed and thinking in that gap. Yes. So that's what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about how to navigate life's resets, how to reflect on the kind of life you want to live and how might you put in some frameworks in place to get there and what are the ingredients that typical people put in their life during these resets based on the research to actually live a better life, [00:43:00] a more intentional life.

[00:43:01] Daniel: So that's what we're going to talk about in season two.

[00:43:02] Matt: I'm excited about it. How to negotiate a successful reset. Yeah.

[00:43:06] Daniel: So if you're interested in that, or if you've got other ideas for us, email us at [email protected]. We would love to hear about what you gained from this season, what you liked, what you didn't like.

[00:43:16] Daniel: We'd love to hear your stories about what you did. And we'll, if there were any kind of changes that happened in your own attention because of the activities that we gave you, and of course, give us feedback about this idea of talking about transitions and resets and, uh, and, and I suppose having a more intentional plan for the way you live your life.

[00:43:34] Daniel: If that's of interest, let us know why or what parts you'd like us to talk about. And the good thing is as we plan the next season, we can encompass your questions and your thoughts. Uh, in our framework.

[00:43:45] Matt: Yeah.

[00:43:45] Daniel: Got the time. Yeah. It'd be great. So, thank you so much again for joining the Spacemakers. We've loved this first season and journeying with you.

[00:43:53] Daniel: Matt, thank you for running this podcast with me. It's been a pleasure.

[00:43:55] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Likewise, Dan.

[00:43:57] Daniel: And thank you so much for joining us on the Spacemakers. Until [00:44:00] next time. Make space. Make space.

[00:44:02] INTRO VOICE: The Spacemakers. With Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:44:06] Daniel: Big thanks to our sponsor, St Luke's Health, our partner from my home state of Tasmania.

[00:44:11] Daniel: They're not just ensuring health, they're inspiring us to become the healthiest island on the planet.

[00:44:19] INTRO VOICE: Are you looking for a speaker at your next big event? Daniel Sih is a best selling author, TEDx speaker and productivity consultant. To download his speaker kit and start a conversation, visit spacemakers.au. Until next time, make space.