[00:00:00] DANIEL: Hey there, Spacemakers. I'm Daniel Sih, joined by my good friend and co-host, Matt Bain. We bring you The Spacemakers, a podcast to help you shift the way you live and work. More than a podcast, this podcourse will take you on a carefully curated journey around a simple but profound idea, that the habits and practices that fuel success in our twenties and thirties.

[00:00:25] DANIEL: Are the very barriers that hinder maturity in our 40s and 50s. Big thanks to our sponsor, Banjo's Bakery Cafes, who are expanding across Australia and looking for new franchisees. If you're hardworking and business savvy, visit franchise.banjos.com.au and save 10 percent on franchise fees by mentioning Spacemakers.

[00:00:44] PROMO V/O: The Spacemakers. Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:00:48] DANIEL: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Spacemakers podcast, a podcast to help you make space for a meaningful, intentional life. And we are here talking about how to make space for life's inevitable [00:01:00] resets. And I'm here with my co-host and good friend, Matt Bain. Welcome.

[00:01:04] MATT: Hi Dan, good to see you.

[00:01:05] DANIEL: So we are talking about the big idea that the types of habits and practices that set you up for success in your twenties and thirties often hinder progress in your forties, fifties and beyond. So how do we unlearn old habits that worked in one season of our life in order to set ourself up for a new one?

[00:01:23] MATT: Better second half. And today we are going to talk about career resets, career research. It's an intriguing term and a valuable one. I reckon one good way of thinking about it is it's considering both the job that you currently have, the career that you currently have, but also looking at the possibility of the career slash job you're going to have in the future.

[00:01:42] MATT: Maybe very soon.

[00:01:43] DANIEL: Yeah. So what do you do if you feel stuck? If you feel stale? You know that it's time for a sea change and yet you're not quite sure how to take the next step. We're going to talk about habits and practices and frameworks to help you reset your career and make space for a better life. In fact, according to Australian research, the [00:02:00] average Australian changes their jobs 13 times in their lifetime.

[00:02:04] DANIEL: It still blows my mind. Yeah. And, a lot of people take up study or start businesses in their late 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond. And so, career reset is definitely a thing in the midlife squeeze, and we want to talk about how to get there. Yes. Yeah. So look, when I think about my life, I've had heaps Job changes and career changes.

[00:02:26] DANIEL: So in terms of jobs, I've at least had, if I consider being an ice cream driver and a pizza driver and making tin cans when I was young.

[00:02:32] MATT: You worked in a tin can factory? Yep. That's almost up there like we're being sent down the coal mines, like in my imagination. You know what I mean? Working in a tin can factory.

[00:02:41] MATT: That would have been rough.

[00:02:42] DANIEL: Yeah. I survived for a whole two weeks.

[00:02:43] MATT: That really counts.

[00:02:44] DANIEL: Okay. Yeah. I made some. Some mean looking paint cans.

[00:02:46] MATT: I was thinking a lot more, like more of the equivalent of paper cuts. You know what I mean? Dicey.

[00:02:50] DANIEL: Anyway, so I've had those kind of jobs before I became a physiotherapist.

[00:02:53] DANIEL: Mm-Hmm. But then I was a physio, uh, I was a health manager. I've been a project manager. I've been a director of a [00:03:00] nonprofit. I've been a church minister. I've been a marriage celebrant. I've started a small business and now obviously I'm an author, productivity speaker. So, um, so while I've had lots of jobs, I've definitely had probably four or five actual career changes.

[00:03:21] DANIEL: And I don't think I'm that unusual in that sense. Like how many of, you've had lots of jobs too, right?

[00:03:26] MATT: Yeah. Well, like now that. Before we started recording, we started like bouncing around. I started counting in my head, like how many jobs I've had. And I was surprised. I thought maybe 13 was going to be, you know, like just an aspiration in that, but I haven't changed professions.

[00:03:37] MATT: Cause you have, yeah, that's true. You made all those transitions look pretty good. Yeah. And I know like they've been difficult at times, but you might look pretty good, but it's probably like a good place to say that it's not necessarily easy. Like career resets can be tough, right? Yeah. Particularly, I imagine if you are again in that kind of classic midlife squeeze that we've talked about, so, you know, mid forties onwards, and if you've been quite successful at your job or at your chosen [00:04:00] career, the thought of actually changing professions, I think particularly it could be quite.

[00:04:04] MATT: understandably intimidating, because there's a good chance if you made it that far in one profession, you feel, um, that you've got some mastery and you feel pretty competent in that profession. And the thought of having to switch up and do something new, like, you know, that's going to put you in a position of having to be a learner again.

[00:04:19] DANIEL: You feel vulnerable. Yeah. You know, I certainly remember feeling quite confused, particularly the big physiotherapist to a church minister or a minister to a small business owner. Like they were big shifts. They were very confronting and challenging. So we're going to talk about some of those stories, but also.

[00:04:34] DANIEL: What you and I have both learnt in that place of unknowing, that space where you know that something has to change, there's kind of more energy to go forward than to stay with the status quo because there's enough that kind of propels you to change, jumping into something new is terrifying.

[00:04:51] MATT: Yeah. That's good. So big picture, worth it.

[00:04:54] DANIEL: And it's definitely part of what it means to make space for life's inevitable resets because, you know, you can reset [00:05:00] your career at any time. any stage, but the reset in your 40s is different than you reset in your 20s. And I think it's important to think through what might it look like to set yourself up.

[00:05:09] DANIEL: At the end of this episode, we're also going to have a fantastic interview that we had with Gus Lamading from Banjo's Bakery Cafes. He's going to talk about how to help small business owners start their own franchises, and he's got some fantastic stories about working with migrants and people starting their own businesses in the midlife reset to actually start a Banjo's Bakery cafe, and it's been fascinating to hear some of what he's learned guiding people through that process.

[00:05:33] DANIEL: Excellent. Cool.

[00:05:41] MATT: So Dan, before we go much further into career resets that, we want to obviously check back in with the exercise, the exercises that we asked people to undertake from our last episode. And we talked about health. We did. Making space for a change in your health. Yes. Yeah. So as per usual, our challenges.

[00:05:58] MATT: We're aimed at both [00:06:00] audiences. So those in their 20 to 30, so that kind of young adulthood phase and then something different, slightly different for those in the midlife squeeze. So for the twenties to kind of early forties, we suggested doing something like taking a big swing. So undertaking something that was going to be sufficiently challenging that I kind of helped.

[00:06:17] MATT: shape your identity as someone who takes their health seriously and exercise seriously.

[00:06:21] DANIEL: Because you're younger, you're more energetic and you want to be able to stretch their physicality and get strong and make that part of who they are.

[00:06:29] MATT: Make that part of who they are. Going forward, yeah. For those who are a little bit older, again, like mid 40s onwards, we stress that, um, particularly if you felt that that's been deficient in your life, of late, then doing anything, It's better than nothing, right?

[00:06:42] MATT: Change, just try to build one kind of easy habit. Because again, what's the best type of exercise for you to do? It's the one that you will do. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:49] DANIEL: Yeah. So how'd you go? What did I do? Yeah, what did you do? So I had no idea what I was going to do when we finished our episode. Sure. And it was interesting because uh, a few days after, I was at a [00:07:00] dinner party, and I actually caught up with an old friend, a guy called Al.

[00:07:02] DANIEL: We somehow talked about the podcast and talked about health, and I talked about the blood flow restricted cuffs, and he thought that was interesting. And then he, he started to say, cause he's, he's, you know, it's my age, and again, trying to work out how can he improve his health. And he said he's really into cold therapy or something like that, basically.

[00:07:18] DANIEL: Yeah, I mean really, really cold showers and dipping himself in really, really cold water. And I'm like, that sounds absolutely terrible because like I'm a guy who wears like a thermal and three layers every single day. I'm always cold. And he was like, no, every day he has two minutes of completely zero icy cold.

[00:07:38] DANIEL: Like turn the tap to zero . Yeah. Put it on the coldest setting and just freeze yourself for two minutes while you time for two minutes. Wow. Which doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a lot, lot to me.

[00:07:47] MATT: Yeah.

[00:07:47] DANIEL: And uh, basically he dared me to give it a go. Mm-Hmm. And I was like, you know what? In our forties and fifties.

[00:07:53] DANIEL: We get stale and actually two minutes is something I could try and why not, I might like it, I might not [00:08:00] but it's something I've never done and I've now done it three days in a row and I plan to continue at least for another few to see how it goes. But yep, freezing cold tap. You hold your breath, yeah, you hold your breath for two minutes, too.

[00:08:12] DANIEL: You do end up feeling very very awake. Yeah lots of dopamine. Yeah. You feel much more refreshed. I'm not going to promise I'm going to do it every day like he does, but it was an experiment and I think it fit what we talked about.

[00:08:25] MATT: Yeah. Wow. That's uncanny. Well, it is because the thing that I've been doing for the last couple of weeks is having cold showers.

[00:08:34] MATT: So I didn't, didn't see Al, didn't talk to him about it, but read a book called Death by Comfort where the author has like a bunch of different exercises and things that you can kind of want to do, to try to make yourself a bit more healthy and resilient. And I think his background, neuroscientist or something like that, and an ex physiologist.

[00:08:50] MATT: So he talked about the benefits based on his research. He said like 30 seconds, like 30 seconds minimum, we'll get you like, say 80 to 90 percent worth of the benefits over the past. And [00:09:00] he's

[00:09:00] DANIEL: Al made me do an extra minute.

[00:09:01] MATT: He did. Yeah. Yeah. It's because we both know he's a closet sadist. So that probably goes some way.

[00:09:06] MATT: Yeah. Yeah. And I would have given you exactly the same advice. I actually did three minutes today. But anyway. Yeah. So, so his big thing was again, he used to go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he'd say like, I'll do it like three days a week or I'll just do it every day that I feel like good enough to go. But then he found, he started dodging it.

[00:09:22] MATT: So now it's very simple, black and white every day. He goes from his hot shower and then the last 30 seconds is just pure cold. That's what I'm doing. Yeah. And again, I've been feeling it's just a great way to start the day in terms of feeling really vital and invigorated and to some degree, it's like, well, what is going to be harder than what I've just done as well.

[00:09:39] MATT: So it's good for that kind of mindset too. But that is because we didn't talk about this before.

[00:09:44] DANIEL: I mean, apparently it helps information and it wakes you up. It helps you focus on the brown fat too.

[00:09:48] MATT: Is that a thing as well? As in like, it helps like it releases some, cause you've got like two types of fat.

[00:09:52] MATT: And one of it's not really good for you.

[00:09:56] DANIEL: You read a book and you're a physio, and I just got read by a mate when I was, yeah. Having a beer with [00:10:00] him. So, uh, anyway, that's interesting. But, but what I like about this idea is you can, you can do something small, something simple. 30 seconds a day, right? Yeah. It breaks your schema.

[00:10:09] DANIEL: It changes your mindset and it doesn't have to be, you know, cold water therapy, but do something different. Yeah.

[00:10:19] MATT: When you and I've been talking about this idea of career reset, it's funny, like both of us have come back to this same example and what's really funny is that neither you or I knew that the other had had the same conversation with the same person about this very thing. A guy who was a mentor to both of us, you know, and I remember having dinner with him once I was in my early twenties, he would have been probably in his fifties at that stage.

[00:10:38] MATT: And I was talking about like, what do I do with my life career, career wise, right? And at the time I was feeling a fair bit of pressure to kind of get it right straight away. So I could just like dive in and focus on it. And he backed me up a little bit and said, no, no, no, Matt, it's like this. You've got to imagine not just like now, but your career.

[00:10:54] MATT: between now and say your 60s. And he said, here's a great way of thinking about it. You have to imagine that between [00:11:00] your 20s and your 40s, it's like someone has brought to you four or five jigsaw puzzles. And what they've done, like they haven't asked you what kind of jigsaw puzzles you want to do.

[00:11:09] MATT: They've just like given them to you. They've taken the top off the box and then they've like dumped all the pieces on your table and scrambled them. So you've got all these puzzles right in front of you and you don't know which bits go with which, which ending. So he said the twenties to the forties is basically you sorting through all those pieces and working out which bit goes into which particular puzzle.

[00:11:29] MATT: So you've got all these options. You don't know what the end result is going to be. And you're trying to discern between them, all these different options.

[00:11:36] DANIEL: So you're just trying to work out what puzzle pieces belong to you.

[00:11:38] MATT: So that's your twenties to forties, right? Uh, and then he says, really the trick between your fifties, sixties, and onwards is deciding which puzzle do you actually want to finish and complete all your attention and energy and skill set and whatever on doing that puzzle?

[00:11:53] DANIEL: Well, hey, that connects a lot with other episodes that we've had. You know, we talked about productivity and how, when you're young, you want to swing at [00:12:00] everything. So it's a bit like, you know, try lots of different puzzle pieces out, but then when you hit your mid forties, fifties, you actually need to be.

[00:12:06] DANIEL: You know, selective in your swing and say no rather than yes to lots of stuff. Because you've got to get rid of a lot of puzzle pieces. So these are the puzzle pieces that are mine. These are outside of my wheelhouse. I can do them, but they're not the things I'm going to focus on.

[00:12:17] MATT: And like not to put too fine a point in it, but sure.

[00:12:21] MATT: You could do any of those puzzles. Yeah. But you can't do all the puzzles.

[00:12:24] DANIEL: And that’s hard when you've got the capacity to do any of these puzzles, or you know, many of them well. And everyone's actually asking you to keep doing those puzzles, but it's like, I actually have to have focus. But then by the time you hit, let's say your mid forties and fifties, you actually want to slow down, make space and really think deeply about who you are.

[00:12:45] DANIEL: What you value and using that legacy word, what you want your end goal to be. And it's that slowing down and making space that becomes really critical in, in making one of your final resets, I suppose.

[00:12:58] MATT: And maybe your most important reset too.

[00:12:59] DANIEL: Yeah.[00:13:00]

[00:13:06] DANIEL: All right. So Matt, let's talk about the set and reset framework. Now I've written this up in my award winning book, Spacemaker, and it's connected with lots of people. It's based on conversations I've had and coaching I've had with people who are in, and also, I suppose, an examination of the types of things that worked for me through different, particularly career transition.

[00:13:26] DANIEL: And so look, I think of this quote from Stephen Covey, who says, if the ladder's not leaning against the right wall, then every step we take just gets us to the wrong place faster. So, you know, I mean, what do you, what do you think he means by that? Yeah.

[00:13:37] MATT: Well, I think like just on face value, um, yeah, obviously it means that you, you could feel like you're making progress because you are, like, cause like there's movement, but actually like changing positions, but it's all like, ultimately it's almost futile because again, you're actually headed in completely the wrong direction.

[00:13:54] MATT: You're probably getting further away from where you're supposed to be going because again, your ladder is up against the wall.

[00:13:59] DANIEL: Yeah. You're going further [00:14:00] away by making progress. Yeah. I've definitely seen that. So when I was a physiotherapist, I did get to a stage, I was a clinical physiotherapist and I just felt like I was completely stuck.

[00:14:08] DANIEL: You know, like I, I, I didn't love the job, I'd been in it for a long time. I knew that there were, I kind of, I kind of guessed that there were other strengths and skills that I couldn't use in this type of career. And yet, like all I knew was physiotherapy. Now, eventually I was lucky enough to go up the next rung and I became a manager and that opened up different opportunities, but it wasn't until I stopped being a physio altogether and entered the world of consulting that I realised, oh my gosh, like there are ladders everywhere.

[00:14:37] MATT: Yeah. And maybe also, because I think this is important, although you felt stuck, like your words, you were still really good at being a physio. Hmm.

[00:14:47] DANIEL: Yeah. Yeah. People would say I was a good physio. I just knew I would never be a great physio. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have the strengths or the skill set to be a great physio.

[00:14:54] DANIEL: Yeah. And I wanted to be incredible at something. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:58] MATT: But from the outside, like [00:15:00] looking in, if you were looking at, I guess, you know, for science, tangible science, am I in the right spot? You would have had people affirming what you were doing and you would have been, and you had some marks of success and progress.

[00:15:10] MATT: So people would say, Hey Dan, great job with that puzzle.

[00:15:14] DANIEL: Absolutely. So let me talk about the set and reset framework from Spacemaker. And so imagine you've got like a line, like a wave, okay, it goes up and down. And then you've got peaks and troughs. And so I call this set and reset. And so throughout the landscape of life, there are going to be periods of, let's say your career where you feel like you're at the top of the wave, you know, you're at the peak.

[00:15:34] DANIEL: And I call that a period of set where you feel comfortable in your job. You feel like you're in the right place. Uh, you've got goals that you're excited about, maybe new opportunities and you're learning, you're learning stuff along the way. Then you hit reset, which is like a trough where, uh, you just enter that space that we've talked about where you know something needs to change.

[00:15:56] DANIEL: You might feel stale in your job. Uh, it might be that something's [00:16:00] changed, you know, like your boss has changed and you're not getting along with them or, uh, you're just stale in the, the job and the role that you're in. You might, uh, experience, just this desire for something more interesting. Uh, you know, there can be lots of reasons that you want to reset, but whenever you hit that period, you need a different set of habits than in set.

[00:16:19] DANIEL: And that's what I find fascinating that the habits and practices of set, the habits that allow you to be successful when you're set in a career almost need to be unlearned and undone in a period of reset. Sure.

[00:16:32] MATT: Yeah. Um, just trying to get my head around, I guess, like the reasons for reset. So the actual reset is going to make itself manifest where it's going to result in changing a career or changing jobs.

[00:16:42] MATT: Or even a job. Yeah, job. Okay.

[00:16:44] DANIEL: Well, and actually I must admit, or even sometimes, you know, I love City Slickers, the old movie where Billy Crystal goes out into the, kind of the West. And he's in his forties and it's really about how do you deal with the midlife reset. This is what the movie's about. And his [00:17:00] conclusion is I actually just have to do everything better.

[00:17:02] DANIEL: So it doesn't always mean you have to change. Sometimes you have to change, but the change is significant even if it's internal or external. But, uh, um, let's, let's keep it simple and we'll talk about actually changing a job or a job. Yeah.

[00:17:15] MATT: But now you've just got me wishing again, I had someone like Jack Palance in my life.

[00:17:18] MATT: He was fantastic. Um, yeah. So, okay. So, uh, what, what I'm wondering, um, is that like, could the reasons for that, so the reasons that that leads to those feelings that you were talking about, they could be beyond your career as in, so could a reason for a reset for example be I've, something's changed in my family situation so I need hence to change my career because I, maybe I've got these family demands that are suddenly so understandably taxing on me they need my attention I can't invest so much time in my career so I need to reset my career.

[00:17:50] DANIEL: Absolutely so big ones would be uh look, big resets would be marriage, yeah it changes things but particularly kids like you, you know I've got kids now my priorities have changed, yeah. [00:18:00] The energy or focus I have on my job needs to be different, so therefore I need a reset. Uh, look, divorce or marriage breakup is another big reason as well.

[00:18:08] DANIEL: Um, obviously, you know, getting sick. Uh, and, you know, like, not being able to do the job in the way you used to. Uh, but even like, they're individual or personal reasons. But you can also have broader reasons. Let's say a global pandemic. I mean, we can talk about the great resignation. Well, I mean, the pandemic was a time for many of us to take stock and make space to think about the life we're living.

[00:18:30] DANIEL: And a lot of people made a decision to change their jobs or careers. As a result of that. Now, they didn't always stick, because sometimes it was a knee jerk reaction, or it wasn't well thought out, or maybe the opportunities weren't there, but, uh, you know, certainly broad trends can also lead to large scale resets.

[00:18:47] DANIEL: But the point is, something changes. Internally, externally, in your family, in culture. And it thrusts you into a new state of being. Okay. In life is that change happens and if you're not willing to [00:19:00] change as things change, you get stuck.

[00:19:03] MATT: Yeah. Okay. Secondly, what about like the risk of, you know, um, the grass is just always, always greener.

[00:19:10] MATT: Yeah.

[00:19:11] DANIEL: Oh, that was a great quote I read, it was something like, the grass is always greener where there's more shit. So, um,

[00:19:19] MATT: That's, that's some classic poetry right there.

[00:19:22] DANIEL: Classic poetry right there. Uh, yeah, look, so there is a difference between the type of person that just loves to do the next thing, you know, and that's quite different.

[00:19:31] DANIEL: You know, someone who constantly changes jobs because they just get bored. Or, they like a job, it's exciting, and then suddenly it becomes hard and they realise they're actually not as competent as they think, their lack of skill is exposed, and rather than actually dig down and actually master the skills they need through deliberate practice and hard work, they end up failing.

[00:19:54] DANIEL: Making a jump to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Eventually those careers don't do very well. So that's the grass is greener type of [00:20:00] thing. That's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about a deeper values based intrinsic change which requires a sense of pain and thought, and look sometimes you don't know, sometimes you do need to try something can realise actually I did need to try that.

[00:20:16] DANIEL: but it's not the habitual jumping from one lawn to another well manured lawn.

[00:20:22] MATT: Okay, good. Okay, cool. Thank you. Okay. So again, a career reset and the reasons for a career reset, it's going to be different from someone who's just maybe like, um, avoiding hard work or gets super bored super easily. Yeah. Okay.

[00:20:32] MATT: That's good. And what about like, I mean, what about if you're someone and these like a, uh, They're probably like a pretty rare breed in my experience. It certainly wasn't me. It certainly wasn't you, but, um, well, I'm not sure if you've seen this great TV show called the bear, but there's this character in the bear, right?

[00:20:44] MATT: Where, where, where, where, like they mentioned the fact that, uh, he's one of the few people, like that just seems to have a sense of calling in terms of what they're meant to do over the course of their entire career. Like, so are there people out there who, again, you know, if I was one of those people, I shouldn't be sitting at [00:21:00] home thinking, man, well, there must be something wrong with me.

[00:21:01] MATT: Cause I've never really felt this need for a career.

[00:21:04] DANIEL: So I would say that might be a job reset then, but not a career reset. I'd be surprised if you're in one job for your whole life in our current day and age. And if, if you are good on you, like there's no criticism of that, but I think it's, it's un, it's not common.

[00:21:17] DANIEL: Yeah. Uh, but look, even still. I mean, I definitely felt, would I say called to be a physio, I definitely felt called to be a manager. I felt that was like a, something that was very, very intrinsic. And when I got that job, I felt a great deal of affinity to that. I put a lot of energy and passion into it. And then I felt called to be a church minister, you know, talk about calling.

[00:21:39] DANIEL: I mean, yeah. Being a minister is definitely a calling based profession. There's no other reason you do it. And I thought that would be a lifelong calling. And you know, I think some of the challenges of my last reset, probably the biggest challenges weren't the practical reasons, but the internal wrestle with letting go of what I thought was a calling, or what was a calling in one season of life.

[00:21:59] DANIEL: Yeah. And [00:22:00] now seems to be a different type of calling, but still expressing the same values, same beliefs, actually same faith. So even a calling can sometimes change or needs to be let go of and redefined. Not always, but I just think the human life requires that you're a different type of person in different stages.

[00:22:19] DANIEL: I love what the late Eugene Peterson said, okay. And he was once asked about his marriage and he said, well, my wife has been married to eight different guys. And all of them were me. And I just love that idea that if we are moving along the landscape of life, and if we are maturing as humans, then Daniel in his, in his twenties, a healthy, mature Daniel in his twenties, like where I'm meant to be, should be different than the Daniel in his forties, who should be different in his sixties and hopefully different in his eighties, you know, like if we are actually growing and [00:23:00] changing, we actually become.

[00:23:02] DANIEL: But different people with the same personality, same strengths, same bad dad jokes in my case, but different. And I think that goes with anything. You don't want to hold a calling on so tightly, you lose the opportunity to go with the change that comes your way.

[00:23:20] MATT: Yeah. I like that. Um, yeah, I like that. And I think that that's, that's really important for people to hear again.

[00:23:25] MATT: Maybe you're someone who has that, particularly if you're younger, you have a really strong sense of calling to a, to a particular profession. Even then there's a good chance that you would change up roles and jobs within that umbrella. And also, um, like you may have a really strong, like a really strong conviction almost about a, a particular calling towards profession.

[00:23:41] MATT: But again, you can be pretty certain that the one thing that you're not called to be is a fortune teller. And so you, again, no one can predict the future with that kind of certainty. So even maybe hold that, if I've heard you correctly, hold that with a bit of a loose grip. Because it may change.

[00:23:51] DANIEL: Well, absolutely. And look, in my case, you know, calling to be a Christian minister, the whole message is about dying and rising again. So if I'm not willing to [00:24:00] let go of my own calling and my own sense of surety, well then I'm not even following my own faith. Yeah. Um, what I, what I find helpful is the um, what Cal Newport talks about with lifestyle centric planning.

[00:24:11] DANIEL: We won't go into great detail because that's probably another topic all by itself. But he, he suggests that it's not helpful to have one very strong singular defining goal that, that defines your identity. So let's say you're going for the gold medal in the Olympic games. You get that gold medal, then many people get depressed because their entire existence has been around one singular goal at the exclusion of all else, and actually it can unbalance you.

[00:24:37] DANIEL: So his lifestyle centric planning idea is more when you have a sense of calling or goal or vision for your life, it should encompass, let's say, career and work and health and spirituality, you know, have a broader imagination of the type of person you want to become. And that, I think, in itself allows for a little bit more flexibility.

[00:24:57] DANIEL: So yes, I was wrong or I had to change [00:25:00] one area of my life, which was my job, but actually I'm still married to the same beautiful woman. I'm still a dad. I'm still a neighbour to the same people I've been neighbour to for 15 years and still have community. So those areas haven't changed. Uh, so I think again, if you can, I think that's something that happens as you mature over your midlife, sometimes your imagination of, of what really matters and what you're chasing becomes a bit wider as well, and not so narrow and competitive and goal centric.

[00:25:29] MATT: Ah man, it's like it becomes both multifaceted. Yep. And I think richer as a result, but also more importantly, more robust. Yeah, it's not so fragile. If your sense of being and self is really all kind of predicated on doing this one thing and achieving this one thing, you're kind of damned as well. I've failed.

[00:25:48] DANIEL: So let's talk about the habits of set and reset. So when you're in a period of set, so you're, you're riding the wave, you're in a job and you know what you want to achieve. Well, then what are the habits and practices you need to. [00:26:00] Uh, and this is the stuff like I think I put this in the core productivity bucket, you know, you need to set a goal, you want to break your tasks down into tangible next steps.

[00:26:10] DANIEL: You want to plan your week so that your week represents the, something of the longer term goal you want to achieve. You want to put it into your calendar. So you've got time blocking. So your calendar represents your goals. Essentially, you want to work hard, get through tasks, tick things off your list, and spend a lot of your mental energy thinking about what is the very next step to achieve the goal that I'm aiming for, or what's the very next thing I need to do to be successful in this current role I have.

[00:26:37] DANIEL: So it's very distracting to spend a lot of time thinking about big picture ideas about, am I in the right place? Job, am I in the right place, the right career. When you're in set, you actually need to be focusing on, what should I say at this next meeting? How do I prepare this agenda and how do I sit down and actually write that next part of the presentation?

[00:26:53] DANIEL: Mm-Hmm, uh, and that's how you succeed in set. But then you hit a period of reset and you are [00:27:00] unsure of what you need to achieve. And so you, you, you don't wanna, you don't wanna push harder and faster into the habits of set in reset. You know, a lot of people try to work harder. Or work faster, or try to grab at a new idea or a new solution.

[00:27:15] DANIEL: I think that's the grass is greener type idea, where you just jump at something because you have to solve it and you have to keep moving. Whereas I would actually say if set is about moving fast, uh, reset is about moving slow. You know, I, I like the work of Robert Buford who wrote Halftime. It's an older book now, but he suggests that when you hit a halftime, which is essentially a reset.

[00:27:37] DANIEL: The secret is to slow down and to slow the process down deliberately, to not grasp at the next thing and to allow a lot of space and time to pause and reflect and think about your values, your beliefs, what you've liked about your past roles or your current role. Uh, to think about the types of role that you would like to have or the contribution you want to give or the, the broader [00:28:00] significance you want to have in your life.

[00:28:01] DANIEL: Uh, and, and all of that takes a bit of time and, and it's a different set of habits than set.

[00:28:07] MATT: Yeah.

[00:28:08] DANIEL: So when I'm in a period of reset, I spend a lot more time in silence. That's my personality, but I go for long walks on the beach and I think, I write in my journal. I typically revisit my CliftonStrengths assessments and maybe Myers Briggs and other things.

[00:28:21] DANIEL: So I kind of look at what my personality type is and how I can work from a place of strength in order to move into this new season. I'll have conversations with friends or I typically get mentoring in this space where I start to actually bounce ideas off of others. It's a different type of activity.

[00:28:40] DANIEL: So you're not staying still. You're not doing nothing like, you know, watching lots of Netflix and kind of scrolling TikTok, reels. That's, that truly is wasting time. But it's about holding an active space or what I call actively doing nothing. Uh, and, and it's in that space [00:29:00] where you discover the next step, and then you do the next step and you spend more time making space.

[00:29:04] DANIEL: And eventually you discover, now I'm not a physiotherapist anymore. I'm this weird productivity guy doing podcasts.

[00:29:12] MATT: Yeah. Look, I like that and it makes sense to me, but I'm also aware, I suppose if I put on my, you know, like my realist pragmatic hat as well. No, it's like, seriously, because I think this is because there's going to be some people who are listening to this guy.

[00:29:26] MATT: I'm like, man, I'm pretty certain that I'm in like a phase of reset. Okay. So I'm feeling, you know, I've got those feelings of discomfort or maybe just feeling stuck and, um, or I've got these, these other life demands over here that mean it's really hard for me to sustain the pace of this particular career, but they may not be in a position because not everyone is obviously where they've got the capacity for the equivalent of long walks on the beach.

[00:29:49] MATT: They're not so, they're not so kind of heady that they're inclined to journaling or they just like, they don't even like, they don't have the financial means or the time for say, like, you know, to pay for [00:30:00] a professional coaching, you know, or a mentor, you know? So it's like, how did those folk, who just probably more going to be because of whole of life stuff, more time poor, for example, so just time poor, or don't have the financial means to be able to access a bunch of other resources that we can draw on to give us perspective.

[00:30:17] MATT: Like, how do they go about this? Yes.

[00:30:19] DANIEL: Look, I think you've mentioned two things that I've heard. One is about Um, time poverty and the ability to make space to reflect deeply on your why, your goals, your purpose, strengths. And the other one is about the financial means. So let me separate them because I think they're different.

[00:30:32] DANIEL: So in terms of the time question, I just don't buy it. Like I ask audiences all around Australia, if you had two hours of guilt free space to do something where you would nourish yourself. Uh, self care, do something that really energised you. You can't catch up on housework and email, you just have to do something that you value.

[00:30:52] DANIEL: What would you do? And everyone says like, I'd go for a walk on the beach, I'd think, I'd have a coffee with a friend, you know, play guitar. And then I say, who [00:31:00] here would spend two hours a week, um, scrolling social media, everyone puts a hand up who would spend two hours on like some type of streaming service, which doesn't add a whole lot of value to their life.

[00:31:10] DANIEL: Everyone puts a hand up. We have the time. We're just filling it with low quality digital activity because we're so smashed and exhausted. And I'm not saying you have to spend like eight hours every day meditating at the beach. I'm saying that for the next few months of a period of reset, do some journaling like once a week, half an hour or.

[00:31:29] DANIEL: Spend half an hour walking, you know, and thinking, or phone a friend and actually have a conversation, et cetera. And say, hey, what do you think I'm good at? Or do a CliftonStrength test. It takes like 40 minutes online. That's 30 bucks, 40 bucks.

[00:31:41] MATT: I guess if you were being like hypercritical, you might suggest that the kind of people who turn up.

[00:31:47] MATT: To listen to someone like you talk for two hours and put their hands up the kind of people who have that kind of time. Whereas there's the people who are even too busy or too like life is just pressing them so bad. They like pulling multiple shifts at the tin [00:32:00] can factory that they can't like they, I hear what you're saying.

[00:32:03] MATT: You know, I'm, I'm, I'm just like pointing out, maybe there was a slight kind of like white collar professional knowledge worker.

[00:32:12] DANIEL: Well, look, we can, we might disagree. I think in terms of time, everyone has two hours they could find if they really, really wanted it. Maybe in terms of self efficacy, skillset, the ability to find different paths to solve your problems, you know, to, to have that level of self skill for self awareness, you know, that I agree.

[00:32:32] DANIEL: Yeah. Totally agree on that. Yeah. But in terms of the time piece, I, I don't buy that. I think if you really want something, you can make it happen. Okay. Uh, because we're not talking about large chunks of time, but I'm happy for the pushback. We always

[00:32:44] MATT: And I'll be, I'm happy to try to be a working class hero here.

[00:32:45] MATT: Exactly.

[00:32:46] DANIEL: Hey, um, and in, in terms of, in terms of the, uh, the money piece, I agree with you. Like not everyone can afford coaching and I, but I haven't had coaching and at one point I was lucky enough to work in the health sector and I actually got some free [00:33:00] coaching through Lyca. Yeah. Mental health plan. So there are some services you can access through different plans.

[00:33:05] DANIEL: But look, some of the most valuable guidance I've had has been talking to my mates.

[00:33:10] MATT: Yes.

[00:33:11] DANIEL: And calling them up and saying, I'm stuck and I'm not okay. Yeah. And I feel like I'm, I need to change my job, but I don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, to call someone who's either done it or someone who you trust.

[00:33:24] DANIEL: Uh, I had a friend who, who sat me down at some stage, this is during my physio reset, and said, let's pull out a piece of paper and write down all the options that you could come up with. And then just kept pushing me to come up with even more options until I found one or two ideas. And then I could work out maybe a next step.

[00:33:41] DANIEL: So I don't think it has to be a professional coach, but what I will say is I don't think you can have a successful reset unless you take time to invest in it. And the investing in it requires slowing down, making space and thinking about what comes next. And it's worth it because you're talking about your life.[00:34:00]

[00:34:04] DANIEL: I did say I would share some of my reset experiences. And so my first big reset was I was about, uh, early thirties, I had been a physiotherapist for over a decade, you know, it was a safe career. I was skilled at it, I was being paid pretty well and I'd moved into management at that stage. So, you know, things were going pretty well for me, but I had actually had a taste of the job above me and the higher I tended to go up in the health sector, the more I just did admin and meetings and that actually wasn't what I liked and it wasn't what I was good at either.

[00:34:35] DANIEL: So, I kind of felt like I was a little bit stuck on the ladder that I was in because actually going up was to go down, backwards in terms of life enjoyment. And at the same stage, I'd actually started this fun, energetic, kind of crazy businessy thing called Spacemakers, which I do now. And it was really, it was never meant to be a business.

[00:34:53] DANIEL: We basically wanted to teach our colleagues how to deal with the email inbox because I had skills in that space and I'd learned some [00:35:00] stuff. And my friend and I, Tim Hines, were interested in helping others. And so we created an ABN and started to train people in email ninja. And I just started to build some momentum.

[00:35:11] DANIEL: And at the same time, I'd been the chair of my church board for a long time and our senior minister had left and we really couldn't find someone. We needed someone. And I was asked if I would step in and do the job. And I actually felt very compelled to do it, but I didn't have the time. So I had these three, I was basically kind of doing three jobs at the time.

[00:35:32] DANIEL: And, um, working super hard. I had young kids as well. You know, I was, I was doing everything in terms of set, working harder, doing longer hours, pumping out tasks. And I started to get breathless. Uh, so I started at first feeling breathless when I was standing in front of my team, kind of, let's say team meeting.

[00:35:53] DANIEL: And, and I just, I just felt breathless and I was like, oh, that's weird. Uh, and then I felt breathless at the dinner table and I [00:36:00] started to feel breathless reading, you know, the Gruffalo to my kids at night. Uh, and so, you know, and feeling breathless made me worried about being breathless. So I went to the doctor and, and look, thankfully there was nothing wrong with me physically.

[00:36:13] DANIEL: But when I spoke to my GP, he heard about my three jobs and he said, I suspect this is stress and anxiety. And that was a really confronting thing for me to realise that actually. I think behind the scenes I knew I had to make a change and I was resisting it and I was working faster and harder to try to juggle more balls at the same time and actually what I needed to do was just accept that I was in a period of reset.

[00:36:42] DANIEL: and change my habits. And that was, that was a really big eye opening moment for me. I know I've shared some of this story in a previous season, uh, but what this was for me was recognising it's time to slow down. It's time to stop. And I'd seen a friend who had actually continued pushing on, uh, a few years older than [00:37:00] me.

[00:37:00] DANIEL: He was a CEO of a large organisation, and he ended up in ICU with significant health problems and has never had the same resilience to work at that level again. And I could see actually, if I just keep pushing harder and ignore my health, I'll end up in that same space. So thankfully I had that friend as an example.

[00:37:18] DANIEL: And so I got to pause. And so I took some time off work. Lucky I had some sick leave banked up. I got some coaching through the employee assistance program at work, which was helpful to a point. And I started to really think about, the type of job I wanted and the type of life I wanted to live. Uh, and so that's where I started to have more intentional times of silence and journaling and writing.

[00:37:42] DANIEL: It's where I learned to start to pay attention to the aha moments, what I call kairos moments. And I also got another coach where I started to reflect on how do I care for my own health. It was a very formative period of time, but it took quite a long time. I didn't just jump. It took about six months, I think.

[00:37:59] DANIEL: And [00:38:00] there were two aha moments that truly cemented it for me. Cause the question was not just how do I care for my health, but how do I dump to all these jobs because I was overcooking it. And, and the one conversation was with my physio manager at the time, and she was an amazing manager. I once said she was the best manager I ever had, but then I realised she was the last manager I ever had.

[00:38:24] DANIEL: So, and she basically said to me, oh, look, I can see your heart's not in this like it used to be. I know that you've got a lot on, but we would like to keep you instead of working as much as you're working. If you want, you always have the option of having a one day a week job with us. That way you'll be, you know, you can do whatever you want basically.

[00:38:42] DANIEL: And that way you'll be safe and secure if, you know, business and other things don't work out. And that should have been a beautiful thing to hear, but I just felt super angry and just, you know, almost felt like there was rage inside of me and so I reflected on that emotion later on [00:39:00] and I realised that actually I already knew that it was, I knew what I had to do.

[00:39:04] DANIEL: I had to quit my job and actually, to keep a simple easy permanent part time physio job would keep pulling me back into something I knew I should actually leave, so I actually made a decision that day to resign from physio and quit. So that was one bigger heart moment. The other bigger heart moment was a week later.

[00:39:21] DANIEL: And you know, this story where I was chatting with our mate Pete and he's a straight shooter. And I said, oh, Pete, he ran a consulting business, a bit like Spacemakers. And I said, oh, Pete, I've made a decision. I'm going to quit my job and be a full time business owner. And, uh, he looked at me and said, that would be so dumb.

[00:39:41] DANIEL: And, and he was right because I would have actually had to earn enough money to pay for the mortgage and businesses don't go from nothing to something all of a sudden. And look, through those two aha moments, I realised I should quit my job but keep some casual physiotherapy work on the side. I started to do a small amount of paid work for my church.

[00:39:59] DANIEL: I [00:40:00] started to build my business up. It was a much better mix and I was back into set. And from that point on, it was like, okay, I have to earn money. I have to get clients, I have to build training courses, I have to somehow make this new mix work for me. And I stopped taking those long, long walks on the beach and I started to focus.

[00:40:19] DANIEL: That's interesting. It looks very different. It looks very different and that came about through that deep reflective process and slowing down. So hopefully that's helpful to put a bit of meat on the bones in terms of what it could look like.

[00:40:30] MATT: I appreciate hearing that. Uh, again, every time we hear it, it’s like something new lands, that's a really good story to help illustrate these principles in someone's real life.

[00:40:38] MATT: Um, obviously like we kicked around a whole lot of ideas this episode, it's such a big and important topic that we really want to give this to you. So we've made this like a two parter. So next episode, we're really going to be diving into the habits, some really good habits, um, and concrete practices to help you regardless of whether you find yourself in a set or reset stage.

[00:40:58] MATT: Yeah. And irrespective of your [00:41:00] season of life. All right. So on that, so, given that next week is going to be so practical, so practical, what we'd like people to do this week, so in between, is just stop and spend some time reflecting upon whether they think they're currently in a set stage or a reset stage.

[00:41:16] DANIEL: And you may be in a period of set in career, but reset in your relationship or a period of reset in where you're living. Or set elsewhere. So, so think about it. Relationship resets. Yeah. So think, I mean, think about it in terms of your life. Yeah. You know, I just don't want to make it simple. Yeah. You may not be set in everything.

[00:41:35] DANIEL: Uh, so take some time to think about it. Yeah.

[00:41:37] MATT: Cause I mean, maybe, maybe also like you were on a stage where you thought you were somewhere before this episode, but now you started to question whether you actually are in. Yeah. And so on that as a kind of like a sneak preview, now it'd be great as usual, just take 30 seconds, 30 seconds to stop pause, take some time out to start considering and working out where you are, set or reset, across all of life.[00:42:00]

[00:42:48] DANIEL: I am super excited to be here with my friend, Gustav Lammerding from Banjo's Bakery Cafes. And we've, we've been working together doing productivity stuff, but we're going to talk about what it means to help people in a midlife [00:43:00] reset by starting their own careers, uh, by being a franchisee. So, welcome Gustav.

[00:43:04] GUSTAV: Thank you very much. Um, thanks for inviting me onto your podcast. I really appreciate it.

[00:43:08] DANIEL: Yeah. I've been really looking forward to this conversation. I've been working with your team at Banjo's, uh, helping with productivity and helping shape some of the practices of your team. Yeah. You found some of that useful?

[00:43:18] GUSTAV: Yes, very much so, especially the email ninja.

[00:43:21] DANIEL: Okay. Yes. Have you got your inbox to zero?

[00:43:25] GUSTAV: Not at the moment, but I'm working towards it, I promise you. Well done. But the, but the methodology of that is really sound.

[00:43:32] DANIEL: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? None of it's rocket science, but what's hard is to implement these things.

[00:43:35] DANIEL: Yeah, exactly. Hey, so we're also talking about how to help people with a career reset, you and your team have worked with so many different people, migrants and people from different backgrounds and, and help them start their own jobs by being franchisees. So, um, tell me a few of the stories you shared with me previously.

[00:43:54] GUSTAV: So there's a fantastic franchisee in, uh, Cairns is a [00:44:00] Tasmanian, um, but he moved to the Gold Coast, uh, many years ago and he was a refrigerator mechanic. And then an opportunity came up to open up one of the very first drive thrus in, uh, Queensland, close to Cairns. It is such a fantastic story because him and his wife, they run it together.

[00:44:21] GUEST: They went up to Cairns virtually on, on holiday, they were like, this is amazing. We were just going to do this. They jumped into the business and, um, they have been thriving. So to the extent that he is looking, he's actively looking for a second site.

[00:44:40] DANIEL: Okay. And how long has it taken for him to go from one site to ready?

[00:44:42] GUSTAV: Just three years, three years.

[00:44:43] DANIEL: Oh, that's pretty fast. Yeah. So I know, look, obviously you have an accent. You're a migrant yourself.

[00:44:45] GUSTAV: I am.

[00:44:46] DANIEL: And I know you have a heart for supporting people who come from, you know, overseas. Yeah. Are there any stories of migrants who have started stores successfully?

[00:44:58] GUSTAV: Yes, there is.

[00:44:59] GUSTAV: There's [00:45:00] um, another franchisee of ours, um, in fact, we've just opened up his fourth store.

[00:45:07] DANIEL: Okay. He's a bit greedy.

[00:45:08] GUSTAV: He is. And he's done it. He opened up his first one in 2020. Yeah. And in a couple of months time, he's gonna be opening up - so he, as a student, he came to Australia, he studied in Australia, he's from Pakistan.

[00:45:22] GUSTAV: He went through the self raising program in record time, um, but he worked, uh, very hard and opened up his, uh, first store in 2020.

[00:45:28] DANIEL: So I hear you say work hard. I mean, was he a baker?

[00:45:30] GUSTAV: No, he wasn't a baker at all. His family business was in textiles. So it's vastly different from baking, but he just was hardworking.

[00:45:45] DANIEL: He had business now and was ready to give it a go.

[00:45:48] GUSTAV: Yeah. And he was ready to get his hands dirty. What type of characteristics would you say you need to start a store? So you need a bit of tenacity. Um, but, uh, you [00:46:00] don't have to have business skills as such. There's a lot of our franchisees, which have worked themselves up through the system as bakers, but then they go into the self raising program and we teach them that, and then they become business people.

[00:46:15] GUSTAV: So the self raising program is another channel of support that gets offered. It is a six month program that was developed in house and covers everything from making donuts to your actual finances and tax and so forth. Yeah.

[00:46:31] DANIEL: Okay. So I'm interested in knowing how to make donuts.

[00:46:36] GUSTAV: I dunno about the tax, but, uh, I think the donuts might be a little bit more difficult than the tax to be honest.

[00:46:40] DANIEL: I think so. Look, it sounds like the self raising program equips people with what they need to do to go from almost scratch to, you know, really succeeding in business, which is great. So the last quick question, if you had one, if you had one bit of advice for someone who wanted to career reset and start [00:47:00] their own business, you know, with yourself or even with others, what would you say?

[00:47:04] GUSTAV: That's a good question. Look, I went through a career reset myself. I went, I worked in advertising in my earlier career, and I decided to go and study further and cross over into strategy and marketing, which is the corporate side. And the best thing I did was to literally just take the jump, just, just have a bit of faith and just take that leap.

[00:47:32] GUSTAV: Um, because if you do that, then you can actually see what you can achieve. You so much more than what you think you are. Most of the time, if you jump, you can see you can fly. If you think you can do it, you can.

[00:47:51] DANIEL: So just take the leap. Look, that is great advice. I think that's great life advice as well, because once you've leapt, you've got no other choice but to fly.

[00:47:59] DANIEL: [00:48:00] Exactly. So take the plunge. Thank you so much for coming on our show. It's great to have a conversation with you, Gustav, and we will continue working together in other capacities outside of the show. Yeah.

[00:48:10] GUSTAV: And thanks for everything that you have done for us and our teams as well. Actually, you, it's, uh, the fact that you have.

[00:48:19] GUSTAV: Helped us with our productivity, has freed up space for me to actually be here. Otherwise, I would not be here.

[00:48:25] DANIEL: That's a good thing. I appreciate it. Thanks, Gustav.

[00:48:33] DANIEL: So, Matt, we've talked a lot about Reset and Career Reset. It's a big topic. I thought it might be good to give people a few helpful resources that we have if they want to dive in further. Excellent. So, we have a webpage where you can download a PDF and get a free chapter of my book, which is the chapter which explains the set and reset framework in great detail.

[00:48:52] DANIEL: So if you're interested in the set and reset framework and the activities that I outline in my book, Spacemaker, you can download the chapter for free [00:49:00] plus a PDF to help you shape your life plan at spacemakers.au/lifeplan. That's spacemakers.au/lifeplan. We also have a brand new e learning course, Priority Samurai.

[00:49:15] DANIEL: I'm so excited about this. It's been launched recently after 10 years of thinking about this. And so if you go to PrioritySamurai.com, you can get three free videos and really find out how do you get started. Yeah. So that's really about how you achieve the stuff that matters. And the last thing is if you're interested in engaging us for reset coaching, we are launching a new kind of a reset coaching cohort in the style and vein of my productivity masterclass.

[00:49:46] DANIEL: So that's where you can find us. Online for just over an hour a fortnight in a group of six people We do it over a period of time and it's a great way to connect with other like minded people who are going through a career reset, and for us to guide you through a very difficult time [00:50:00] targeted specific framework that we've developed.

[00:50:02] DANIEL: So we're taking interest in a new intake for next year. So contact us at [email protected]. If you want a conversation with one of us about reset coaching.

[00:50:13] MATT: And maybe on that, like in that conversation, if you like long walks on the beach and journaling and having coaches, then maybe it's referenced all that stuff.

[00:50:20] MATT: So you'll get Dan, if you prefer to like to talk about stuff over a beer, I'm your guy. That sounds good.

[00:50:27] DANIEL: Looks like I'm out of work. Actually, one last resource. I know we're giving you lots of different ideas, but I have a heap of videos on YouTube about career reset, uh, about way power, about Kiores moments, all the kind of different concepts we've talked about.

[00:50:42] DANIEL: They're obviously free. Look up my YouTube channel, Spacemakers. Excellent. Okay. So Matt, next week, we're going to continue the career reset conversation. Tell us, give us a sneak peek. Yeah.

[00:50:52] MATT: Okay. So next week, as we said, we're going to be looking at some really concrete, practical actions and habits. And if you're the kind of person who's come across, you know, [00:51:00] read a bunch of books or listen to podcasters and stuff on this subject.

[00:51:03] MATT: The idea of following your heart when it comes to your choosing your career, we're going to be perhaps debunking that. I think it'd be safe to say we're going to be talking about Cal Newport's fantastic idea of deliberate practice as an alternative to just following your heart. And we're also going to be looking at the great idea of actively.

[00:51:18] MATT: Sounds strange. I know. Actively doing nothing. That can help us out when it comes to a career slash relationship slash whole world changes.

[00:51:28] DANIEL: That is fantastic. I'm looking forward to this episode. But until next time, make space. Make space.

[00:51:35] PROMO V/O: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:51:38] DANIEL: A warm thanks to our sponsor, Banjo's Bakery Cafes.

[00:51:41] DANIEL: who are expanding across Australia and looking for new franchisees. If you're hard working and business savvy, visit franchise.banjos.com.au and save 10 percent on franchise fees by mentioning Spacemakers.

[00:51:54] PROMO V/O: Want to change your habits through this pod course? Download our free Season 2 Toolkit. It's [00:52:00] packed with activities, reflective questions, and print ready handouts to guide your midlife reset.

[00:52:05] PROMO V/O: It's our gift to you. Visit spacemakers.au/s2 and make space.