[00:00:00] Daniel: Hey there, Spacemakers. Welcome back to our podcast about making space for a meaningful life by doing less, not more. I'm Daniel Sih, your host, joined by my spacemaking partner in crime, Matt Bain. If you're tuning in for the first time, we're exploring the fracturing of our attention and how to reclaim your focus.

[00:00:23] Daniel: If you notice that your concentration is waning and you're running to a stand still, well, then you're in the right place. A special thank you to our amazing show sponsor, St. Luke's Health, our partner from my home state of Tasmania. They're not just ensuring health, they're inspiring us to become the healthiest island on the planet.

[00:00:43] Daniel: The Space Makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:00:48] Daniel: Welcome back to the Space Makers and today we're going to talk about neuroplasticity and how use of the internet is shifting our brain. But before we do, we finished last episode by putting out a practical [00:01:00] challenge, which was simply to take five minutes out of your week and actually go outside without a device and pay attention to your surroundings.

[00:01:08] Daniel: Now, we did that. Did you do that?

[00:01:08] Matt: Yeah, yeah, I did. I did.

[00:01:09] Daniel: Well done. Good. Uh, and, uh, and so I did too. I did it pretty quickly, actually, in the sense of I did it, uh, after we recorded our last podcast. And it was interesting because I, I remember being in this place, which I'm less familiar with. It's kind of a park like environment, but it was just amazing just to pay attention to stuff that I just walk past and don't pay attention to.

[00:01:31] Daniel: Like ever. There was this amazing hedge that I was looking at and it's, it's beautiful and green, but then, uh, the edge of it, uh, was all kind of pink, almost like someone who dyed their, you know, tips kind of a different colour. Uh, and it was really breezy. And so I remember closing my eyes and just feeling the warmth, feeling the breeze, and it was just a nice experience.

[00:01:52] Matt: Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. That was mine. What about you? Mine was a little dissimilar, I think, a little dissimilar. So, uh, [00:02:00] I think as I said last podcast, I kind of walked into this expecting to find it slightly challenging. So the five minutes felt a whole lot longer than five minutes to me. Um, and I found if I didn't actively look for something to pay attention to.

[00:02:14] Matt: So if I didn't have some visual stimulation. So where I was, I saw some nice cars, some interesting cars. If I didn't look at those cars, like consciously, I just found that I think it's often referred to as the monkey mind kicked in. So I just had like, if I wasn't actively distracting myself by looking at some cars, I found just this chatter, uh, going around in the, in the background and it was all, shall we say, problem oriented.

[00:02:36] Matt: I think so. It was all, it wasn't all kind of useful stuff, um, as opposed to, it was just, you got to do this. You got to do this. This isn't working out. What about this? What about that?

[00:02:44] Daniel: Look, I read a, I read a book called, uh, wrapped by Winifred Gallagher a while ago, and one of the activities that she has is to look at a, uh, uh, something you know, in your environment.

[00:02:54] Daniel: So maybe if you're in the kitchen, look at the toaster or something inane and not very interesting.

[00:02:59] Matt: Yeah.

[00:02:59] Daniel: And. [00:03:00] And she said that if you look at that, you'll quickly just go to, you know, random thoughts and you'll be distracted. But if you start asking questions about it, okay, so I wonder why it's silver and I'll look at the way in which that's shaped and, uh, wouldn't it be interesting if that was a spaceship?

[00:03:14] Daniel: You can then put your attention on that for a lot longer because novelty and curiosity is something that can keep our attention for a while. So, I don't know, I don't know if it relates, but I like that idea of being able to train our attention by not just having to have this kind of Zen mind and look at something without any thoughts, but to be able to ask questions and then dive deeper into whatever you're putting your attention on.

[00:03:37] Daniel: We might even do that as an activity at some stage in the future.

[00:03:40] Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ask the spaceship question.

[00:03:42] Daniel: Ask the spaceship question. How does my toaster make me want to uh, fly to Mars? Yeah, imagine this is a spaceship. Yeah, we'll have to ask Elon Musk if he has a solution Alright, so we are talking about Neuroplasticity today and the impact of what we do in our life on our [00:04:00] brain.

[00:04:00] Daniel: So let me start with a personal example. So when I was young, I played the piano, or more accurately, my parents paid for piano lessons, which, you know, isn't quite the same thing. Uh, and, and they got me to practice 15 to 20 minutes every day. And look, some days it was a nightmare. And I remember, uh, not exactly doing what I was meant to, but they persevered.

[00:04:20] Daniel: And so I persevered. And after about five, six, seven years, I could say I could play the piano. And so I did classical training. Eventually I could play, uh, music by Mozart or Chopin, even without sheet music. And, uh, over time, I started to feel the music and I started to see the world rhythmically and my brain started to shift in terms of the enjoyment I had around music and, and so this is an example of neuroplasticity, where the brain changes based on what we habitually do.

[00:04:47] Daniel: So based on our. actual activities and habits and practices, neurons grow and pathways develop. And so with lots of years of piano practice, I eventually started to become musical. Okay. [00:05:00] And, and, and so the same is true whenever it comes to anything we practice, whether it be a sport or uh, a craft, learning a language, or any kind of workplace skill, you know, the more you practice something, the more your brain changes and becomes plastic and develops in response to that.

[00:05:19] Daniel: What's interesting is that the same is true when it comes to internet practice. So, the average Australian adult now practices the internet 9. 4 hours a day or 65 hours a week. That's a lot of time on screens when you look at it all combined. Far out. Yeah. And so look, whether it be 40 hours or 60 hours a week, I mean, it doesn't really matter.

[00:05:38] Daniel: The point is that's a lot of internet practice. And like, imagine if I was to practice the piano for 65 hours a week, I mean, that would have a massive impact. impact on my developing mind, wouldn't it? I mean, it would change the way in which I engaged in the world. It would make me think musically. Uh, and, and not only that, if I spent 65 hours a week on piano, and like, [00:06:00] I don't think professional musicians would practice anywhere near that much, but if I was to do something absurd like that, well, That's 65 hours a week.

[00:06:07] Daniel: I can't spend playing board games with my kids or doing email or getting a real job. So there's also a trade off because of how I'm biasing my activities and therefore ramping up particular parts of my brain, showing my brain what is important versus what's not. And so my point is that, uh, no wonder our constant use of the internet, of watching short films, of scrolling the net, uh, of using screens in, in myriad ways.

[00:06:38] Daniel: I mean, it's, we do this because our digital tools are fantastic. They help us, they help us grow, they help us connect, help us learn. So again, I'm not anti-technology, but we do need to recognize that high levels of internet practice is like any other practice and it is significantly rewiring us to do inside out.

[00:06:56] Daniel: Okay.

[00:06:57] Matt: Yeah.

[00:06:57] Daniel: I mean, is that what you've seen in the research [00:07:00] and what you've been kind of reading?

[00:07:01] Matt: Yeah, it is. It is. Um, what I'm really curious about though, and this has come up in some of the stuff that I read in conversations that we've had before, I hear you talking about the opportunity cost. So there's that.

[00:07:11] Matt: We've been talking about the loss of attention. So I'm wondering, are we saying that the practice in the internet actually changes us from the inside out through amongst other things, lessening our natural capacity for attention or our capacity to build an attention span, which I think would be different from say, playing the piano.

[00:07:30] Matt: And thirdly, I hear you talking about perception. So you talked about seeing the world rhythmically. Yeah. So does our internet practice change the way that we view the world? Ourselves, other people from the inside out as well. Like on that, so like the kind of classic example I imagine would be, given that I take, most people take, a phone with them wherever they go on holidays or even out for a nice meal and they're taking photos of the meal or the holiday destination to some degree they're [00:08:00] curating that experience.

[00:08:01] Matt: Does that mean that they're, the way they perceive that has now changed? So compared to 10 years ago when I'd just be out there enjoying my meal or enjoying the holiday, maybe take a couple of happy snaps, but that would be it.

[00:08:12] Daniel: Hmm. Yeah, so we're mediating our experiences of life. I mean, again, I took, I'm just saying this because I want to look really hip, but I took my daughter to the Hilltop Hoods concert, or maybe she took me, I'm not sure.

[00:08:21] Daniel: Uh, and, you know, again, she, she even mentioned, isn't it weird that you know, the vast majority of people have their hand up and they're filming the entire concert. But seriously, how many times are you going to watch that three hour concert again once you've filmed it? Maybe you'll find a YouTube reel and send it on Instagram.

[00:08:36] Daniel: But the point is that you're kind of missing some of the experience when you look, you're literally watching a live concert. through a mediated device that has to be a different experience than if I'm actually looking at the singers themselves. So in that sense, I do think that, uh, digital media does shift and change our experience.

[00:08:55] Daniel: Now is that good? Is that bad? I don't want to put a moral judgment on it, but it is different. [00:09:00]

[00:09:00] Matt: It is different. Yeah. Cause, cause I wonder again, cause like, again, you were talking about, um, you know, Opportunity cost in the sense that it's detracting from my experience in the moment. If I've got the phone out and I'm taking photos of the hilltop hoods, whatever.

[00:09:10] Matt: I'm also wondering if it changes our perception in the sense that, um, you know how they used to say, if all you got is a hammer, then everything becomes a nail. I was wondering, is there like a social media equivalent? It's social media. Does everything become content to curate? Yeah. So I don't, so again, part of the, part of the change perception may be everything now that I experienced when I'm, you know, trying to capture digitally is now there's some value judgments and quality judgment there because I'm thinking about sharing it.

[00:09:38] Matt: Yeah. But going back to your point of when you were playing piano, you started viewing the world rhythmically. If I just spent a lot of time practicing internet, I think I start to view the world and experiences and other people differently too.

[00:09:51] Daniel: Definitely. And so this is where Neil Postman, who I'm a great fan of his work, he, you might call him a media prophet of our age, you know, he followed, [00:10:00] uh, Marshall McLuhan, who kind of started writing media theory and formed the idea of thinking about the medium is the message.

[00:10:05] Daniel: And I think in the 1960s, uh, you know, then you've got Neil Postman, who started writing in the eighties, Amusing Ourselves to Death is one of his famous books, and he, he really predicted the world as it is today. Mm-Hmm. And he suggested that in, in that book, he suggested that there are two visions of the world.

[00:10:21] Daniel: This is in the eighties and he's writing in the late eighties, I think. Early nineties. And he said, you know, there's the Orwellian vision. Mm-Hmm. So kind of, an animal farm where all of society will be taken over by totalitarian governments and there'll be big evil people who control the rest of us, uh, through command and control.

[00:10:38] Daniel: And then he talked about the opposite, which is Brave New World, where we're basically addicted to SOMUS. So we're so entertained, and we're all so happy and enjoyable that we are actually used and abused. because of our distractibility. And he suggested that actually, uh, there are countries like China and Russia who have gone down the totalitarian route.

[00:10:56] Daniel: So, uh, Brave New World in 1984. And [00:11:00] then there's the West, which have gone down the Brave New World route. Uh, why did I go down that line? I'm getting distracted. Uh, so what he was trying to say is we need to be very aware that the media that we use is a distraction. is fundamentally shaping our perception of democracy, of religion, of society, of work, just like you said.

[00:11:18] Daniel: And, uh, and therefore, we need to think clearly about how the technologies themselves are shaping us. Yes. If that's too, you know, highbrow or technical, well basically, his main message is, uh, technology is not additive like a hammer. Okay. In the sense of you can grab a hammer, you can use it. Sure, if you're a builder, it might change your identity, but essentially, I can use a hammer and it doesn't fundamentally change the way I interact with my kids the next day.

[00:11:42] Daniel: Although I wouldn't mind using it one day. But anyway, um, does that make sense? So it's not additive. Yes. Yeah. It's in the sense of it's not just a tool. He says it's ecological. What he meant by this, and this is before like a whole lot of neuroplasticity research came out. Yeah. He basically is saying when you interact regularly with [00:12:00] technologies, the ideas embedded in those technologies will fundamentally reshape your identity, your relationships.

[00:12:07] Daniel: and the society around you. And we see this, um, in Stolen Focus, Johan Hari does a really great job of explaining this. He says the idea embedded in Twitter is that you have short burst, novel, interesting comments. And therefore, when we use Twitter, we end up with polarized opinions and, uh, lots of people arguing and yelling in the public sphere because you can only talk in small bite sized chunks and without nuance and dialogue.

[00:12:34] Daniel: That is the consequence of the medium. that plays out in the message. Yes. Uh, when you use Instagram, well then, because it's very image based and body based, well then you immediately start to think more about your looks and you start to see the world from an external perspective, which is why now we're all interested in what we look like and how fit we are.

[00:12:55] Daniel: And, uh, and how beautiful we are and how we present on the outside, but we're less interested in [00:13:00] our character, the virtues of patience, kindness, development, you know, the love, joy, peace, et cetera. Um, that's a consequence of the tools we use. Anyway, I've gone on a bit of a ramble, but I think that's what you're saying.

[00:13:12] Daniel: Is that right? There's a consequence to the tools we use and the ecology of it.

[00:13:15] Matt: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's both. Perception. So how we actually perceive and see the world, each other, ourselves. And also it does something, it changes, if not erodes and compromises our attention span or our capacity to develop it and attention span as well.

[00:13:31] Matt: So it's both. It's both. It's both. And

[00:13:33] Daniel: it's not all bad, of course. I mean, now I have the ability to have an idea and suddenly access the internet, you know. I find it funny. It's a bit like chat GPT. Like I teach people how to use chat GPT and I'm fascinated because I think it's a very useful technology with ideas embedded in it.

[00:13:47] Daniel: Yeah. But we used to do that with Google. We have to learn how to Google, right? We don't have to learn how to Google now. Everyone just has an idea. They search it up because that's part of our ecology. So now when I'm watching a movie and I [00:14:00] see an actor, I think, well, I wonder what they've been in and I Google it or whenever I have any idea, I just look up Wikipedia or some other kind of site.

[00:14:06] Daniel: So that is now part of the way in which we see the world. And there's some benefits to that. But culturally and individually, our neuroplasticity has changed so that whenever we have an idea, we look for information. There are pros with that, but there are cons in the sense of we're less patient now, we find out things less for ourselves, we're more reliant on other people's ideas and their perspectives rather than having our own deep thoughts.

[00:14:29] Daniel: So there's a, there's a cost and a benefit to every change. What we can't do is ignore the reality that internet practice does change us. And, particularly, it has a significant cost on our attention and our ability to concentrate, our ability to be silent and quiet and self reflective, and our ability to have in person, meaningful, community based relationships with people.

[00:14:54] Daniel: people in real time. It has a cost in all those areas. And that's where we're and productivity, the [00:15:00] ability to achieve deep work. And those kind of areas are what we're talking about in the series.

[00:15:05] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Cause I think, I think like maybe as a, as an adjunct to that as well, it's great for particularly for gathering information, but gathering information.

[00:15:15] Matt: So finding out, you know, so where, uh, how many other movies has that actor been in. And getting an answer to that is different from any kind of deep analysis or critical thinking about that information or a discernment process around that information, you know. So you hear people talk about the distinction between information is different from knowledge.

[00:15:37] Matt: knowledge is different from wisdom, for example. So I think like to some degree, so much of that information is so seamless and easy to access that it doesn't encourage me to practice deep, critical, analytical thinking. Definitely. Does that make sense? Like, so be curious. Cause like a bunch of probably like the world's greatest books you can now get for free on the internet because of the route of, you know, copyright date.

[00:15:56] Matt: I wonder how many people take the time to [00:16:00] access the internet to read the world's greatest books in long form. Versus jump online to find like the summary.

[00:16:05] Daniel: Yeah. I mean, we talked about Blinkist once, didn't we? We did. Yeah. And what were your opinions about Blinkist? I

[00:16:11] Matt: think it's, I think like, cause I want you to be sued, not me.

[00:16:14] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. So on paper, it's like a great idea, right? Like it's a great idea. I'm sure people like, I'm sure, I'm sure that some people use it appropriately and discerningly, but I guess like my concern is to some degree, it reminds me of the cheat sheets or they used to call them the cliff notes that I grew up with.

[00:16:28] Matt: So like summarized versions of a piece of work that I think you could on a bad day equate to like, you know how those, uh, those mother birds Hmm. For their little, what do you call them? Like chicks, chicklings, I dunno. Birdlings, whatever. Birds chicklings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bird chicklings. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, so when they're feeding them to start off with, 'cause the little birds can't digest like the big bits of food, so.

[00:16:51] Matt: they're pre masticated. They're pre masticated. We weren't meant to say that on this show. So the mother bird, as far as I know, like chews them up, slightly like digests them, and then [00:17:00] regurgitates them. So they're in a palatable form for the chicklings, right? Because they can't do it themselves. They haven't got the capacity.

[00:17:06] Matt: But if I was fed on, you know, pre masticated food, if I just lived off a blender, then eventually my capacity to be able to chew, Digest and handle the thicker stuff would be reduced. It would erode. So I think again, like the risk is we are more and more getting used to predigested, simplified, already thought out ideas.

[00:17:23] Matt: We don't go back to the primary sources, which robs us of the, um, the catalysts, the impetus to do the harder thinking ourselves, the wrangling ourselves. I think that's also like a risk and that's where you get these polarized opinions because people aren't going back to original sources as much for news.

[00:17:38] Matt: They're going back to it.

[00:17:42] Daniel: Yeah, we're not learning to think in a deep thread. And again, look, I can see the benefit of Blinkist if you want to scan a number of books, find out if it's interesting, but then read the book yourself. So it's more of a do I read the book type of investigation. But if you think you've actually read the book because you've looked at the Blinkist summary, well, then you might as well have read my book and say, [00:18:00] I don't know, Blinkist for Spacemaker would be.

[00:18:03] Daniel: Digital technology can be addictive, turn it off, but the book's much more than that.

[00:18:07] Matt: Yeah, that's right.

[00:18:08] Daniel: And, um, and it's a bit similar to I was chatting back on the, uh, the movie front, I was chatting with a bunch of leaders and, uh, one of, one of them said, Oh, my partner, uh, no longer watches movies with me.

[00:18:20] Daniel: And I said, oh, shall we watch this movie? And she said, oh, no, I've seen it before. And he goes, oh, when did you watch it? And she goes, oh, I didn't watch it. I just watched like two or three YouTube shorts and I know the story. And so that's fascinating that in her mind she'd watched the movie and in which case, but, but I think a movie or a book has much more texture and nuance than that.

[00:18:37] Daniel: And so again, it's not good or bad and it's great that you can get the storyline of the movie in like 10 seconds, but at the same time, uh, there is, all we're saying is that there is a consequence. to regularly practicing particular modes of information and learning. And I think some of the costs like you've mentioned is that not just we don't go to the sources, but we lose our ability for long form thinking, for nuance, for having deep [00:19:00] meaningful dialogue and hearing opinions that we don't like ourselves, uh, and, and really to be able to think about who we are.

[00:19:06] Daniel: And my, my big concern is that if we don't have time and space to be silent. and still and reflect on our emotions and our thoughts and our dreams and our values. Then we end up actually living someone else's script and just kind of sleepwalking through life, which I see all the time, even in senior leaders where they're just following the narrative that they've been given, you know, one ladder after the next, like one run up the ladder after the next, and, and, and.

[00:19:32] Daniel: And yet I think that the life of humanity can be so much more rich and intentional and nuanced that we can reflect on what we really believe and apply information into our life, which is partly why, you know, we want this series to be so much about not just a yarn between you and I, but then what do we do about it and how do we reflect on that and apply.

[00:19:51] Daniel: Um, so I might even pause because we've just gone off on a bit of a,

[00:19:54] Matt: and this is the tip of the iceberg.

[00:19:56] Daniel: I know we can go forever, right?

[00:19:57] Matt: Yeah.

[00:19:57] Daniel: But why don't we just pause for a moment? Uh, and in [00:20:00] this podcast, we do. Give people the chance to make space to think and reflect. So we've talked about a whole lot of different ideas, internet practice, the medium is the message.

[00:20:08] Daniel: We've talked about, you know, the ecology of technology and, and, uh, different ways in which the medium can shape our personality and our way of seeing the world. So what's one thing that stands out to you from what we've talked about? And is there anything that you can apply or is there anything that you can say, okay, I'm going to take this knowledge and then put it into practice.

[00:20:26] Daniel: So let's have 30 seconds of space and then we'll continue the podcast.[00:21:00]

[00:21:07] Matt: Well, hopefully that was useful and some good, uh, food for thought. One thing I was wondering, Dan, uh, we talked a lot about, I guess, like anecdotes and stuff that I may have read someday a while ago in some book and our, I guess, like subjective experience. Do you have any, like any kind of thing to add in terms of hard science?

[00:21:24] Matt: Anything like from a more kind of blatantly scientific perspective? Hard science?

[00:21:28] Daniel: No, we make this stuff up. This is what this podcast is about.

[00:21:31] Matt: I've heard you talk about neuroplasticity, a word that I have, it's got way too, way too many syllables for me, so.

[00:21:36] Daniel: Yeah, well you talked about masticating, so.

[00:21:37] Matt: Okay, so back to neuroplasticity.

[00:21:40] Daniel: Yeah. Look, we talked about internet practice, okay, and the idea that the more we practice the more it changes our brain. So that's great in theory. And we, we understand neuroplasticity. I think a lot of people have a growing sense of what that is. Uh, if you look at the research, the classic, you know, very well cited research study was, uh, for UK taxi [00:22:00] drivers.

[00:22:00] Daniel: And so because it's so difficult to be a UK taxi driver, the streets are so complex and they have to drive, you know, without, this is before Siri as well. And, uh, before GPS was around, they just had to know amazing amounts of streets. And so when you looked at the MRIs of they had a very significant growth in particular areas of their brain related to spatial connection and map reading.

[00:22:23] Daniel: Okay. So that was an example that what you do on a regular basis literally changes your brain and you can see it on an MRI. So the curiosity question would be, well, does that happen with internet practice? And so the challenge for us now is we don't really have a control group because we're all addicted to the internet.

[00:22:40] Daniel: And so it's hard to find a control group. But if you look at studies looking at For example, people who are self diagnosed with internet disorders or internet addiction, so they, they truly spend all their time online gaming or scrolling the internet. Again, if you look at the MRI studies, it's very, very clear that their brain has changed compared to [00:23:00] those who say they're not addicted to the internet.

[00:23:02] Daniel: So there's a part of the brain called the anterior cingulate cortex, uh, and that has a loss of gray matter from my understanding. Basically, that's a part of the brain that allows us to be patient and to have empathy, and to have a sense of self control and self regulation, which makes sense if you're constantly playing Fortnite for like 10 hours a day, well then of course it'll increase your reaction time when you're using the internet, and it'll increase your ability to do particular things well, uh, to focus on a screen based activity for a long period of time, so there's benefits there, but at the same time you're going to lose your ability to connect with real people and to have Deep empathy that comes from caring about someone because you're shooting people constantly, uh, if that makes sense.

[00:23:46] Daniel: And so there's been study after study showing that there's less integration between the left and the right hemisphere of the brain. There's an impact in areas of the brain related to kind of the executive functioning parts of the brain, which, which is, you know, you [00:24:00] know, why all of us lose our ability to an extent to be able to just be silent and concentrate and, and just do deep work without desiring interruption because our brain has been wired to need more dopamine, uh, and more novelty and, and to have that interruption to help us through the day.

[00:24:19] Daniel: Uh, so it's not all bad, but again, there is hard science that says it's our experience is marked by an internal change in the way our brains are wired. Yeah. Okay.

[00:24:31] Matt: It's a little bit scary, but it's good to know. So it really is, it really is, like safe to say, really is changing our physiology. It is changing our physiology.

[00:24:38] Daniel: And what's fascinating is, uh, you know, like Nicholas Carr first kind of wrote his seminal book, The Shallows. I think this is early 2000s. I can't quite remember, but he was one of the first people that said, Our, our use of the internet is changing our brains. This is before the smartphone came out, before ubiquitous internet was in everything, okay?

[00:24:59] Daniel: And his example [00:25:00] is he used to be able to read a book, and, and he can't read anymore. Like he used to be able to read for hours on end and focus and concentrate. And now he looks at a book and within two or three pages, his mind starts wandering and he really feels like being on a screen or doing something else.

[00:25:15] Daniel: And so that's the subjective experience. But that would, that would be shown on MRI, and there are reasons for that from the inside out. Yeah, makes sense. Uh, and the other thing that's fascinating about what we see, and this is my physiotherapy background, uh, so I think that's still hard science, is that, uh, what we practice is very, very specific.

[00:25:37] Daniel: to the activities that we're practicing. So there is research that suggests, for example, that video gaming will make you more able to concentrate and focus. My son tells me that research all the time when he wants a PS5 and I say, no, not quite yet. But, but I, I guarantee you that, so if he was to play the PS5 on end, yes, he would be better at, he would have faster hand eye [00:26:00] coordination, and faster reaction times, and the ability to probably see things on a screen that he wouldn't have without that practice.

[00:26:07] Daniel: But I don't think it will help him read a book more, and I don't think it will help him, um, observe what's happening in our family outside of the screen more because what you train is very specific. So, if you practice basketball, it doesn't make you better at javelin. You know, if you practice javelin, it doesn't make you better at, I don't know, ice skating.

[00:26:25] Daniel: Uh, what we learn is very task specific. And this is my argument when, for example, uh, when we enrolled our child in school, the, the, the principal was saying, Oh, we love the technologies we use. This is when smart boards were used a lot. Yeah. And they said, oh, it's amazing how much smart boards are increasing the hand eye coordination of our kids.

[00:26:45] Daniel: But the physio in me was thinking, actually, what you're saying is you're helping kids increase their hand eye coordination using a screen. And that's without a doubt true. But it's not helping them play basketball. Yeah. If they're dribbling balls, they'll be better at hand [00:27:00] eye coordination with a ball.

[00:27:01] Daniel: If they're moving things on a smart board, they're learning it to do on the smart board. But it's very specific and we need to be aware of that as well. And not assume that one medium will translate into another. Uh, again, that, that's a neuroplastic principle. Wow. There's my little rant.

[00:27:13] Matt: Yeah. I'm just curious about like, whether playing piano for seven years, whether that was transferable to anything else at all.

[00:27:21] Matt: I must admit, I can't play the piano now either. Seven years is a long time.

[00:27:25] Daniel: Yeah, yeah. But you know, five minutes a day for seven years really isn't that much. I practice yelling at my sister more than even playing the piano.

[00:27:35] Daniel: We're going to get practical as we always do. We need to apply all this information and do something about it so that you can walk away from this series knowing that you've actually improved your concentration. Tell us about leisure activities because that's where we're heading for our activity.

[00:27:51] Matt: Yeah. This is gonna be fun. This is a good one. So, uh, to give credit where it's due, uh, this idea came from Just take it as I want it. It makes us smarter. Yeah. [00:28:00] Yeah. And more open to, uh, what do they call it? Litigious action. So, to give credit where it's due, this is, uh, this idea came from Cal Newport. So, or at least he popularized it.

[00:28:07] Matt: He, um, was the first guy I came across who coined the term high quality leisure activity. So by high quality leisure activity, and I've read, you know, some other authors on it since it's, it's, and I, it's, uh, a hobby, it's a pursuit, it's some form of leisure. So first important thing about it is that you're not paid for it.

[00:28:24] Matt: It's like your day gig. So you're not being, you know, there's no, there's no money coming in for it. So you're doing it primarily, uh, out of a sense of joy and satisfaction that it brings you. So this podcast counts. Yeah. Yeah. Well, for me, it counts. Like, until those checks start rolling in, for me, this is pure high quality leisure activity.

[00:28:41] Daniel: That’s right. And Matt will be giving his bank account details for those who feel sorry for him right now. All right.

[00:28:45] Matt: So that's the first thing. Um, yeah. Secondly, it's going to involve some effort, right? So a high quality leisure activity isn't just vegging out. So I like to kind of think about this in the sense that it's something that where you're actively creating or developing something as opposed to just consuming something, right?

[00:28:59] Matt: So that's like the [00:29:00] second kind of element of high quality leisure activity. Um, and thirdly, you can do it with other people, right? So it can be a social activity as well. So it's, you know, it's some kind of skill development. Maybe it's something, again, that you're kind of, you're focused at a little bit.

[00:29:14] Matt: It may involve you kind of like getting into that much talked about flow state as well, but it brings you like a sense of competency, mastery, joy, fulfillment. Okay. So the other kind of way that I think about it is that after you've done the high quality like leisure activity, you're not going to feel like down on yourself or regretful or just dirty, which is how often I feel if I've like binged too much Netflix, for example, you know what I mean?

[00:29:35] Matt: So, so you can distinguish between the high quality and the low quality. I'd say usually the low quality involves some kind of digital. medium. And again, it's very much you can check out. It doesn't engage you. It doesn't demand much in terms of your attention or your effort. And again, afterwards you will bereft of that sense of joy or fulfillment.

[00:29:53] Matt: You don't really feel like you kind of, you've, you've spent the time well.

[00:29:56] Daniel: So if you go back to your example about the little birds eating mum's [00:30:00] vomit. You just want to say the word again,

[00:30:01] Daniel: don't you? Mum's vomit, we'll go with that. But, um, That's what you mean, isn't it? It's just like it's simple. It's easy to eat.

[00:30:08] Daniel: It's just like, it's like digital, digital junk food, but you walk away going, I don't feel nourished or refreshed. I don't feel energized. And actually it, it, it hasn't made me feel like I've got the energy for the next, you know, work day. Uh, I just kind of killed time.

[00:30:24] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Killed time.

[00:30:27] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Slash wasted time. Yeah.

[00:30:28] Daniel: It's not all bad because sometimes it's good to waste time and to do kind of mindless stuff. You just don't want it to be the majority of how you spend your leisure, right?

[00:30:35] Matt: Yes. Well, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Although, like, to be honest with you, if I like stop and think, okay, when was the last time that I really, really, really, really had to binge like Netflix?

[00:30:45] Matt: You know, because I'd say that's different from like, say, engaging with, you know, on a sporadic basis are really like, like a good TV show for example. Or movie that you want to watch and that you will appreciate and that maybe even will like help you grow as a person.

[00:30:57] Daniel: Actually, and that's true. And when I, you know, when I [00:31:00] am brain dead and I watch a movie or watch a good quality show, it's always with my wife or family or someone that I care about.

[00:31:06] Daniel: So there's a kind of a relational component. I suppose increases the quality of that activity as long as it's not what we do all the time.

[00:31:13] Matt: Yeah, as opposed to, you know, and because you hear about this happening, you know, one person in a partnership is watching their screen and their show, and they're side by side with the other partner watching their own show.

[00:31:22] Matt: Yeah. In tandem.

[00:31:23] Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. So what do we do about it then? Oh, and what's an example?

[00:31:27] Matt: Yeah. Okay. So, in my own life, Yeah. Yeah. So I enjoy brewing beer with friends. Yeah. So, uh, specifically I enjoy drinking

[00:31:34] Daniel: your brewed beer.

[00:31:35] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. It's corny to say. So, uh, yeah. So, um, probably like say once every couple of months, three or four of us will get together.

[00:31:43] Matt: We've got, it's, it's very kind of ritualized. It's all very hands on. You know, we brew our beer from scratch. I'll put on some records. I've got a record player. So I put on, and that just kind of adds that analog versus digital feel. And you've got to listen to it like an entire side at a time because no one can be bothered Pick up the needle and put him on a separate track and that kind of stuff.

[00:31:58] Matt: So again, you know, it lends itself to [00:32:00] paying like greater attention. So that's something that I enjoy. I enjoy doing jujitsu. Not very good, but I enjoy that. And that's very much like an embodied, completely non digital pastime. You know, because you're not even wearing a watch, for example, when you're doing that.

[00:32:14] Matt: Yeah. So there are two things that I enjoy. And then occasionally I enjoy cooking. Again, like, you know, because it demands something of me in terms of my attention and my focus. There's just like a little bit of effort. Can do it with or for other people, always feel better afterwards.

[00:32:26] Daniel: Do you do like, are you a cake and desserts guy, or just any type of meal?

[00:32:30] Matt: I’m probably more of a savouries guy.

[00:32:31] Matt: If I really had to pick a team, if I had to go with a side, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I come from a long line of dessert makers, so I've still got aspirations for that.

[00:32:39] Daniel: Okay, well if you ever feel like making a vanilla slice, I'd be happy to try some, but uh Yeah. Yeah. So for me, look, I'm, I'm introverted.

[00:32:46] Daniel: I, so it's usually physical for me. I like walking. Yeah. I love being outdoors in nature. Yeah. I will go in the gym. It is a high quality leisure activity for me. I, I, there are times where I'll listen to a podcast and, and really enjoy getting information, but there's times where I [00:33:00] just don't have anything and I let my brain wander.

[00:33:02] Daniel: Yeah. Uh, yeah. And swimming is another one, you know, maybe riding a bike. Yeah. Um, yeah. Or play chess with my kids, which is great. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So those kind of activities would, would count for me as high quality activities and ones that I don't naturally want to do, or it takes a bit more effort to get going on it, but then I feel better afterwards.

[00:33:23] Daniel: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:33:24] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. So again, there's some element of, you know, strain for want of a better term, I think some element of having to pay attention, some degree of effort. So it's not completely vegging out. It's not mindless. But again, like you said before, it actually re energizes you to some degree afterwards and you feel better for it.

[00:33:39] Daniel: Yep. Okay, so our productivity challenge or our kind of practical activity because we want every episode to lead to some type of practical change where you practice recapturing your attention and actually from a neuroplastic point of view just practice having a little bit less internet practice so unplugging a little bit more and then re firing up maybe old [00:34:00] circuitry or old wiring in the brain that actually gives you a lot of joy and pleasure that you might be neglecting because of

[00:34:05] Daniel: the kind of the trade off that you've had. And so in this example, what we'd like you to do is select one high quality leisure activity, not something new, because I don't want you to have to go out and buy equipment and research on Google or YouTube for the next 10 hours. Like I just pick something that you do occasionally or that you have done in the past, that you have a certain level of skill in it, at least you could just

[00:34:26] Daniel: Pick it up and get going right now. That's right. If it can be with others, that's great. So the first step is to make a phone call or a text someone and say, Hey, do you want to do this on Thursday night? Or if it's by yourself, well then pick a time and a place. So you've got an action trigger that we talked about last time.

[00:34:41] Daniel: And essentially what, what do we want people to do? Spend half an hour, one hour.

[00:34:48] Matt: So spend one hour in the next week before the next episode. Yeah. Trading maybe an hour of low quality digital activity for high quality leisure.

[00:34:54] Daniel: Yeah, that's right.

[00:34:54] Matt: That's right. And ideally, if you can, do it without any digital [00:35:00] connection or devices around you as well.

[00:35:01] Matt: Yeah, okay. If you can go unplugged, that's even better. If you can go unplugged, do it unplugged. Okay.

[00:35:06] Daniel: Yeah. So, what would it be for me? Uh, You know what? I will do something I haven't done for a long time, which is play guitar and it's hanging up It's like by our television that was kind of shaping the path after reading a book about you know, shaping a path But it just means it gets dusty next to the TV While I use the remote regularly So yeah, I reckon I will pick up the guitar pull out some old songs and just tinker away for fun Yeah, and I will do it kind of Wednesday, I'll do it Tuesday after dinner, Tuesday after dinner.

[00:35:37] Daniel: Yeah. When the kids are kind of doing their thing, getting ready for bed, et cetera. Yeah. Okay. Okay. What about you? What are you?

[00:35:42] Matt: So I did mention this before, but one of the high quality, um, leisure activity that I've, that I've long enjoyed, but again, starting to is reading and specifically reading fiction.

[00:35:53] Matt: easy for me to read non fiction. I want to go back to fiction. So there's a book that I've been, uh, have tried to get to dive into a couple of [00:36:00] times, um, and it's, uh, and I still haven't finished it. Okay. And it's been long enough now that I've forgotten a lot of it. So I want to start at the start again.

[00:36:06] Matt: Okay. I want to read that in one hour, in a one hour sitting.

[00:36:09] Daniel: Great. Why don't you just, what, read the Blinkist review?

[00:36:13] Matt: Actually, that's a good, that's a good, that's a good segue. And come back and report that you've read the book. I should say again, just because I know some people are going to say I hate is going to hate, but I don't hate.

[00:36:22] Matt: I'm not down on Blinkist whatsoever. So just to make that absolutely clear, be more than happy if they want to reach out and sponsor this podcast.

[00:36:28] Daniel: Yeah,

[00:36:28] Matt: yeah, yeah.

[00:36:29] Daniel: That's right. Yep. So we could actually make this a job rather than a high quality leisure activity. All right. So look, hopefully you can do that.

[00:36:36] Daniel: Um, just pause for a moment. We won't have 30 seconds, but at least think about when and where you will take one hour this week to do a high quality leisure activity. What is that activity? Be specific. Don't be vague. Yes. And if it involves other people, just think about how you'll involve them in that process.

[00:36:52] Daniel: We would love you to email us at [email protected] and hopefully unplugged. And hopefully unplugged. And hopefully unplugged. Yeah, but not when they're emailing us, [00:37:00] right?

[00:37:00] Matt: No, no. Sorry. When they're into a quality leisure activity.

[00:37:03] Daniel: So email us at [email protected]. Let us know how you found that activity or tell us what you did.

[00:37:09] Daniel: That would be fascinating. Yeah. And, uh, we'll certainly feedback what we've done when we catch up next week. So, hopefully this has been an interesting conversation for you. You know, really the main messages are that our brain is plastic and it changes based on what we habitually do. And that whatever we practice, including digital activities,

[00:37:30] Daniel: So, um, yeah. Okay, so, this is the transcript of the webinar. You can find it on the website, and you can get in touch with us on our Facebook page. We hope to see you at the webinar.

[00:37:56] Matt: Yeah, if I could add just one thing quickly, I'd be really interested in hearing how people actually [00:38:00] feel after that one hour.

[00:38:02] Matt: Because, well, I mean, we can talk about neuroplasticity and changes in our physiology. I think like that subjective, firsthand lived experience is really important as well. So like, if you feel remarkably better after you one hour's worth of activity, as opposed to one hour's worth of Netflix, for example, um, I'd love to hear about that.

[00:38:17] Matt: We'd love to hear about that too. I think that's important.

[00:38:19] Daniel: But, but actually I'll put a caveat on that because remember we are potentially, you are potentially. It's. Yeah. putting into place activities that are firing up, you know, let's say old parts of the brain. So imagine you used to have a walking path and now it's grown over and there's weeds and there's like kind of thorns and thistles.

[00:38:36] Daniel: So I actually might feel a bit uncomfortable to get going. You know, I certainly think that might be the case with my guitar solo. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:42] Matt: Although look, I'll take your walking path analogy. I'll raise it. Yeah. I want to go with just like riding a bike. I reckon like to some degree you get back on the bike and you might feel good straight away.

[00:38:51] Matt: Cool.

[00:38:51] Daniel: Well, let's see who's right, shall we, Matt? And we'll hear people's comments. It might be a bit of both and it'll be fascinating to find out. So I'm super excited because next week [00:39:00] we're going to have a special guest, Jack Riewoldt from the Richmond Tigers. And we're going to talk about game day focus.

[00:39:06] Daniel: So what it means to be an elite sportsman and actually focus. And we're going to talk about how do you actually concentrate on kicking goals when there's all this distraction at a grand final. Uh, we're going to talk about what are the systems or processes that allow an elite sportsman to actually perform at their best under high stress situations.

[00:39:23] Daniel: And we're going to talk about Jack's experience outside of footy. So the transition from footy, but also what is he doing now and how those kind of attention focus skills helping him thrive in the business world. Join us next week. It's going to be a great conversation. But until next time, make space.

[00:39:42] Daniel: The Space Makers. With Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:39:45] Daniel: Big thanks to our sponsor, St Luke's Health, our partner from my home state of Tasmania. They're not just ensuring health, they're inspiring us to become the healthiest island on the planet.

[00:39:59] Daniel: Are you looking for a [00:40:00] speaker at your next big event? Daniel Sih is a best selling author, TEDx speaker and productivity consultant.

[00:40:06] Daniel: To download his speaker kit and start a conversation, visit spacemakers.au. Until next time, make space.