[00:00:00] DANIEL: Welcome to the Space Makers Podcast, a place where we discuss how to make space for a meaningful life by focusing on what truly matters. I'm Daniel Sih, your host, joined by my good friend and co-host Matt Bain, and we're here to help you make space to think differently about the way you live and work.

[00:00:22] DANIEL: A special thank you to our amazing show sponsors, Bulk Nutrients and St. Luke’s Health, amazing companies from my beautiful home state of Tasmania, the Island of creativity and of course, space making. The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain. Hi folks. Welcome to the space makers podcast.

[00:00:43] MATT: Hey everyone. It's great to be here.

[00:00:45] DANIEL: We are here to talk about how to make space in the clutter of life, to think deeply and rest fully and to experience the life you want to live. So we're going to talk about in season one, the fracturing of our attention. And why we can't concentrate. Sorry, the fracturing of what?

[00:00:59] DANIEL: Yeah, yeah, the fracturing of our attention. And why we can't concentrate.

[00:01:02] MATT: And you and I have been talking about this for ages. Yeah, yeah, how to get our focus back. Yeah,

[00:01:06] DANIEL: and everywhere we go, not only are people saying that they're struggling to concentrate, but we're struggling to concentrate. And I'm fascinated, we're fascinated about why this is, what's going on between the lines, and how can we actually reclaim our focus muscles and live the life we want to live.

[00:01:22] MATT: That's it. What can we do about it

[00:01:24] DANIEL: So the genesis of this topic was when I was driving my son who was 11 and his friend back from hanging out with each other. And what do you do with two 11 year old boys in the car who aren't talking to each other and I've got a 45 minute car trip, right? So I was being that annoying dad and I just said to my son's friend, Oh, I don't know, what movies do you enjoy?

[00:01:43] DANIEL: I thought that was a pretty safe question. And he said to me, I don't watch movies. And I'm like, Oh, that's a bit weird. Don't you like them? And he said, Oh, it's not that I don't like them. I just don't have the concentration span to sit through a whole movie anymore. And I was just like, that's the first time I'd heard that.

[00:01:59] DANIEL: And it was, it was like, bing, bing, it was, it was fascinating. And, and he, he just said it matter of factly as well. Like, it wasn't like there's a problem with this. So I said, I, what, what's going on? going on. And he literally said, Oh, ever since I've been watching TikTok and scrolling YouTube reels, I can't concentrate anymore.

[00:02:17] DANIEL: And so ever since I heard that, I've been thinking, Oh, that's a fascinating idea that the, you know, we weren't saying, Hey, I'm struggling to do mathematical equations or I'm struggling to read, you know. I don't know, Shakespeare. I mean, I'm literally not rocket science. 

[00:02:32] MATT: I'm struggling to watch the Avengers movie because it takes up too much concentration.

[00:02:36] DANIEL: Sure. And that has to have an impact. And, and since then I've seen this, like when I run parenting seminars around Australia, I see this again and again, what parents are saying about the kids. That's more than kids. I mean, I, I am a productivity consultant and I speak with audiences around Australia.

[00:02:51] DANIEL: And so I've started to ask the question when I'm talking about digital overuse, you know, who here in this audience is now struggling to concentrate and [00:03:00] pay attention like you used to, let's say three, five years ago. And like everyone puts a hand up and then I'll say who here even struggles to watch a movie without.

[00:03:08] DANIEL: I don't know, picking up their phone and scanning the internet or scrolling social media. And I'll get about 15 percent of the room to sheepishly put their hand up. And we're talking about 40, 50 year old senior professionals who are working long hours in responsible jobs. And yet they are losing their ability to sit through a movie without checking what's online.

[00:03:29] DANIEL: And that has a consequence. And I think that's what we want to talk about. Why are we losing our attention? What are the consequences for our relationships? our mental health, our kind of ability to think and create and, and obviously be productive. And then what can we do about it? Yeah,

[00:03:46] MATT: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[00:03:46] MATT: Look, I'm not above that at all. Um, you mentioned relationships, my like most poignant moment when it came, uh, I guess you could say it was almost like the equivalent of a wakeup call. It was a couple of years ago. Uh, and my, um, at the time quite young [00:04:00] sons were having a bath and I was sitting there right next to them, like in the moment.

[00:04:03] MATT: And part of me was thinking, this is so good. This is such a rare. treasured moment that I should look like back on forever. Um, I was sitting there just enjoying the moment. And then I found almost like unconsciously my hand reached into my pocket to pull my phone out, check the email to see if the example was going to be there.

[00:04:19] MATT: That was going to change my life to one email. And I thought, Matt, what are you doing? Come on. This is such a
two for one special.

[00:04:24] MATT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course it was going to like be a letdown and it took me away. It detracted and took me out of that again, be completely present. With two people, like two of the most precious people in the whole world to me, I thought, man, something's got to change.

[00:04:36] MATT: Yeah. And I'm sure I'm not alone there. Oh, I mean,

[00:04:38] DANIEL: I hear this. I hear this as well. I see it in my life. It's weird though, because in my mind I want to be present. I mean, I've got three kids as well. And I, I know that when I look back at my life, it's the quality of relationships I have with my family and time that I have with loved ones that's going to matter.

[00:04:53] DANIEL: And yet I'm exactly the same. I mean, I'll be with the kids and honestly, I just want to check my Gmail, which is pretty sad. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's [00:05:00] definitely this drawing of my mind to this invisible online world. And, uh, in these silent kind of boring moments, that's what you're talking about.

[00:05:09] MATT: Yeah, that's right.

[00:05:09] MATT: And again, like, you know, um, we talk relationships, but at work in a professional context, sitting there, I'm getting paid, I've been trained, I've got this, you know, vast experience in problem solving or creative thinking, or working through some kind of, uh, like, um, analysis. And I find myself, you know, and like, as we know, it takes, um, it takes some time.

[00:05:27] MATT: Like to put up the runway to get into that zone where you're working in that deep space context. Uh, and it's so hard, like the constant allure every like 30 seconds or every couple of minutes I'm looking at, you know, I'll just dive into the inbox, see if something's there, something novel, something exciting.

[00:05:41] MATT: So it's compromising. and my ability like to do the work that I most enjoy that brings me the most amount of fulfillment and then at the end of the day,

[00:05:48] DANIEL: I'm getting paid for it. That makes sense. And so look, there are so many facets of this one topic. How do you maintain your attention? How do you learn to concentrate again?

[00:05:57] DANIEL: Uh, we're going to talk about how attention is a bit like a muscle and how, We actually need to retrain it. We're going to talk about the inputs and stimuli that are actually causing us to lose our focus and attention. But the thing, the thing I really care about is it's not just about work and productivity and uh, or even being able to be present with people.

[00:06:14] DANIEL: I think what you pay attention to actually shapes your life. And if you don't have the ability to either even have silence and reflect on who you are and your own kind of values, your own purpose, your own life, well then actually you can't be productive, you can't be intentional, and you'll end up living someone else's script instead of your own.

[00:06:33] DANIEL: And so I think this is a really important topic, like what you pay attention to literally shapes your habits in your life, and therefore how do we pay attention to the things that really matter. And I think that's a, that's worth exploring over this season. Yeah. I'm down for that. Cool. Look, so in terms of who we are, I mean, my name is Daniel Sih, uh, I am a productivity consultant.

[00:06:54] DANIEL: I, uh, work with leaders around Australia, teaching them how to get their inbox to zero, uh, [00:07:00] how to use to do lists and, and very specific productivity stuff. But I've also written a number of books and a couple of books. And I have written a few books. Uh, my first one was space maker and it's about digital wellbeing and looking at why and how we're using our technologies as a whole and how it's fracturing our ability to really live the life we want to live and make space, which is what I'm passionate about.

[00:07:21] DANIEL: That's right. Look, I don't

[00:07:21] MATT: say yourself short, Dan. Okay. That you just have written books. You've written award winning books. The more people in just your immediate family and I have read as well

[00:07:29] DANIEL: as it actually, honestly, my mom and my. Family won't read

[00:07:32] MATT: my book and I had to pay my daughter to read it before she got her first phone.

[00:07:37] DANIEL: So actually my family won't read my book, but yes, it has won awards. Uh, no. So one best personal development book in Australia in 2021, it won best work life balance and time management book in the States in the Axiom Business Book Award. So I've been very thankful for people kind of grabbing onto these ideas and talking about them.

[00:07:54] DANIEL: Uh, I've got another book, raising tech, healthy humans, which is about how to. Set up your kids with good [00:08:00] tech habits. And that really came about because whenever I speak with professional audiences about why we're struggling with our focus and attention, I'll have Q& A. And guess what? The first question, like professionals ask me when I haven't talked about kids is…

[00:08:14] MATT: Oh, yeah. How do I beat my kid at Fortnite?

[00:08:16] DANIEL: That's exactly it. How can I set screen time limits and

[00:08:21] MATT: get my kid? That's gonna be my second guess. But that would, you're very close.

[00:08:25] DANIEL: But maybe you can teach me how to beat your kid at Fortnite. So anyway, and so I want to introduce you as well, Matt. I mean, we've been thinking about a podcast for a few years and honestly, the idea of doing a podcast, you know, it's exciting, but it's a lot of work and I can't think of anyone who I'd want to do it more with than you.

[00:08:41] DANIEL: I mean, you are a close friend. You've been working for Spacemakers for a number of years, doing training and coaching alongside of me. Uh, but really, I, um, you know, you are one of the most creative, interesting, intelligent people I know. I know you, that's a very un-Australian thing to say, but, um, I'm super excited to have you here on the show.

[00:08:58] MATT: Oh, thanks Dan. Like so to be here and I think it'd be fair to say we're a good compliment to each other. Right? Yes. You think so? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, so when it comes to talking about this kind of stuff, I often say when I'm doing the coaching, um, that I'm almost like the equivalent, uh, of, um, probably like someone with a really bad drinking problem, like who needs, um, who needs productivity training, like someone in that situation needs AA or some kind of intervention.

[00:09:23] MATT: Whereas in you specifically, you know, Sprung from your mother's womb with a to do list ready to go, I think right out of the box, so to speak. So yeah, yeah. So we're so different in that regard, but I think that's why, like, we are good for

[00:09:32] DANIEL: each other. Yeah. And this is why I learned from you as well and vice versa.

[00:09:36] DANIEL: Uh, yeah. I look in a similar way when I'm training people, I say, you know, I, I'm naturally organized, I'm structured, I love to do lists, you know, I'm very planned. And then I worked with Matt and he's someone you would want to be friends with. So again, you're relational, uh, you're curious and

[00:09:54] MATT: yes, you're not very structured.

[00:09:55] MATT: My people feel, I feel better about themselves when they say that. Yeah, exactly. And you're, you're a great coach.

[00:09:59] DANIEL: And so I think we can, uh, support each other actually

[00:10:03] MATT: on that comment about, um, I dunno, complement each other. I don't know if you remember this, but the first, the first time we worked together, we were both volunteers and we worked for a training organization.

[00:10:15] DANIEL: And we had this boss called Darren. And I remember he gave us this assignment. You may not

[00:10:19] MATT: remember it, but he told us that we had to post about a hundred letters to supporters. And he gave us an instruction to, um, stamp the return address onto the back of the envelopes. And so I

[00:10:30] DANIEL: had my 50 envelopes and, you know, I stamped them carefully.

[00:10:34] DANIEL: So the ink was careful. It was like, you know, equal center. Anyway, you just went stamp, stamp,

[00:10:40] MATT: stamp, stamp. And I remember Darren looked at the two and you had stamps, which are like on the left. They were kind of not quite upside down, but very creatively placed. And he completely.

[00:10:50] MATT: I'm not going to crack the shits and he's like, can't you stand properly?

[00:10:54] DANIEL: oh, you and I laughed so much. And I remember at that point, you know,

[00:10:57] MATT: I realized I had found my soulmate that,  that you

[00:11:00] DANIEL: Compliment me. Yeah.

[00:11:02] MATT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'd forgotten that. That's funny. He didn't know I was left handed then either. 

[00:11:06] DANIEL: He didn't know. And we had a whole lot of fun, but you know, the reality is that, uh, in terms of productivity, you come from a place where you are not naturally motivated to be productive and organized.

[00:11:16] DANIEL: Yeah. And yet you're naturally relational. And curious. Yeah. And great with people. And I'm the opposite. So hopefully we can bring out our strengths and our weaknesses into this podcast to help people think about how they can make space what matters most. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. All right. So we look, we've been talking about, uh, stamps and attention, but you know, this is really important.

[00:11:38] DANIEL: Uh, the idea of focusing and learning to concentrate. And to think deeply and it's important, not just in your personal life, but also in your work life. And look, the majority of what I do is work with teams around, you know, how do you use email and MS Teams and, and how do you engage in deep work and focus?

[00:11:56] DANIEL: And what I've noticed increasingly since COVID is that, groups and corporations and teams are coming to me and just saying we can't get stuff done. We're busier than ever before. People are struggling with overwork. They're tired. You know, there's, there's burnout and we just feel like there's more and more and more and we're struggling to do our priorities.

[00:12:15] DANIEL: And so when I do a deep dive into it, I think the ideas of concentration and attention and the technologies we use are so central to digital wellbeing and So I was training a group of people in England, a big non for profit, and they asked me to do a leadership seminar about how to make space by doing less, not more, particularly around technology and wellbeing.

[00:12:39] DANIEL: And look, it was, it was one of those really engaged groups. Uh, you know, online training can be hard to do. And yet there was about 120 people and they just constantly engaged with the questions that I had. The chat room was constantly going and it was a really interesting session. I downloaded the Zoom comments at the end of my session and looked at them that night and there was about [00:13:00] 150 comments.

[00:13:01] DANIEL: And so when I asked people a question, uh, if you had two hours of guilt free space, how would you use that time? And people talked about, well, I'd, you know, I'd go to the beach and I'd swim or I'd, you I'd have a massage or I'd have a nap. Uh, you know, when I talked about digital overuse and are people struggling with focus and like literally everyone was saying, yes, I can't concentrate like I used to.

[00:13:22] DANIEL: Uh, I'm always checking my notifications. I have to put my phone face down or discipline myself with screen time just so I don't actually check my phone at night. So again, people were engaging, but I read this one comment out of lots of comments and it was just nested in the middle and. A few people liked it, but, but it was like an aha moment, and I think it's an amazing comment.

[00:13:43] DANIEL: Uh, let me read it. Uh, they said, here's the irony question. How many of us have looked at the chat and realized we might be missing some of the
 

[00:13:51] MATT: presentation? Yeah,

[00:13:53] DANIEL: sure. And I just, I just thought, Oh, wow. Like the irony wasn't lost on me because here I was running a [00:14:00] presentation about why we can't concentrate and why we're multitasking rather than single tasking, how it's impacting our deep work and our ability to do the things that really matter over time.

[00:14:10] DANIEL: And yet the very, mechanism of zoom and the way in which we're engaging in the conversation meant that people were fundamentally multitasking. Yes. They're chatting, commenting on each other's chats, adding reactions and likes and hearts and then half listening to my presentation. And so that the very fact that they were engaged in this online presentation meant that I was training them to multitask.

[00:14:33] DANIEL: And not concentrate. Yes. Yeah. Does that make sense? I mean,
 

[00:14:37] MATT: it makes complete sense. So it's not unlike if we're, if we're looking at how the medium can almost counteract the primary effect it's meant to have, it's not unlike I've, I've, you know, as everyone is doing these days, I've dabbled recently with med, with meditation and probably again, like most people.

[00:14:53] MATT: I'm doing it these days. I chose to dive in via my phone and an app. And of course, like you [00:15:00] there, you listen like to, you know, the soothing British accent or whatever. And he's trying to kind of like just think about your thoughts or clear your mind. And then of course, bing and a message comes up and then it's ruined.

[00:15:09] MATT: So again, and that's because of the, um, cause I'm doing it via technology. I'm doing it via a medium that is just, it's built for that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's all

[00:15:17] DANIEL: put into one big place. It's a multitasking platform essentially with multiple apps happening at the same time and notifications. Yeah. And therefore, even if you're using it in one way to try to calm your mind and to meditate, the medium of using technology or your phone to do that means that you're likely to actually be drawn into other areas.

[00:15:36] DANIEL: Or I imagine even if it's not the bing, right, you might be having a meditation about the beach and then suddenly your mind thinks, actually, wouldn't it be nice to look at, you know, a beach holiday in Thailand and let me look up. Yeah. Yeah. Different tie destinations. And so, and, and because it's all on the same app, you, you end up taking that dopamine hit and distracting yourself.

[00:15:55] DANIEL: Am I right? Yeah.

[00:15:56] MATT: Yeah. That was a beautiful summary and paraphrase. Excellent. Excellent.

[00:16:01] DANIEL: Oh, I was thinking about something else at the time as well. No, but my point I suppose is, and I know you understand this and we've been talking about this for a while, but there's something about the technologies that we're using that even when we use them well, like.

[00:16:14] DANIEL: Uh, in my Zoom meeting, the fact that we're using them in a way that is designed to make us fractured in our attention trains us to therefore need that constant fracturing. So instead of simply sitting in a lecture and listening to a person and reflecting on what they've said and giving that person 100 percent of our attention, for example, a lecture about why we need to concentrate and make space, uh, we, we now require constant banter and interaction and likes and.

[00:16:42] DANIEL: And, um, social cues, which by its very definition stops us from being able to absorb the message

[00:16:48] MATT: itself. So we're not saying that, uh, this was always part of the original intent behind this, behind the technology, more it's just like an, perhaps like an unintended consequence. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean,

[00:16:58] DANIEL: Ken Newport talks about, you know, there's moustache wielding kind of evil executives and I look, there probably are some with moustaches and they probably wield sometimes, but, uh, no, generally, I think.

[00:17:09] DANIEL: the technologies we're using, you know, a lot of the time they, they were originally intended for good. Now, then we added attention engineering and some deliberate design isn't for good, I think. But no, and I'm, it's not even an anti tech message. I love tech. You, you love tech. I have an online business.

[00:17:26] DANIEL: Essentially, I work from home and without the ability to use Zoom and internet platforms, uh, design my own websites and use YouTube and podcasts, I, I wouldn't, I love technology, but we need to be mindful and thoughtful about the impact of technology on our heart, our head and our habits and how we can use technology in a way that helps us to focus and, and the downsides of that.

[00:17:49] DANIEL: Yeah, that's good. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. So you and I have been very deliberate in how we've framed this podcast and we've thought a lot about it because we both have a training background and we develop courses and run courses around productivity. And so, you know, we really wanted to have. Uh, short, sharp episodes, uh, so that super busy people like you and I, who really are quite time poor can actually dive in and actually follow something

[00:18:11] DANIEL: And it's going to be a distinct 10 episode series where we take you on a particular journey to help you understand, uh, what's the impact of internet practice and how is digital technology changing our brain? Uh, what are the attentional systems? So the bottom up system and the bottom down system and how might we need to to reframe the way we shape our environment to help us with our focus and attention.

[00:18:33] DANIEL: Uh, we'll talk about, uh, attention being like a muscle and, you know, the fact that we need to retrain it by reducing distracting inputs, but also practicing concentration rich inputs. And then we'll talk about, you know, a whole lot of other areas like Microsoft Teams and what's happening in workplaces. Uh, we'll talk about silence and solitude and the importance of Quieting our mind and reflecting on the inner life in silence.

[00:18:57] DANIEL: Uh, so basically to take you through a guided [00:19:00] journey so that you can actually reclaim your attention. And we

[00:19:04] MATT: want that guided journey to be actionable and we want it to be realistic. And like you said before, we want it to kind of fit in and be, um, practical for people's very busy, already full lives.

[00:19:14] DANIEL: Yeah, absolutely. And look, because, I mean, I'm an, I'm an introvert, are you an introvert? What would you say? I think like,

[00:19:21] MATT: um, no, I think I'm pretty much like middle of the road, vanilla, like a people. An ambivert. Like. If they exist. Ambivert or omnivert? Omnivert. I don't know. Omnivore? I don't know. Anyway.

[00:19:32] MATT: Yeah. Yeah. I wish I knew. And that's something I should probably find out by the end of the series, but I think I'm slightly omnivore. slightly leaning

[00:19:38] DANIEL: towards extroverted. Are you feeling energized by hanging out with me and talking? That's

[00:19:42] MATT: one word for it. Yeah, no, no, this is good. You're a good liar too, Matt.

[00:19:46] MATT: Look, uh, bottom line, I'm more extroverted than you.
[00:19:48] DANIEL: Yeah, you are more extroverted than me. So that's probably a better point. So I'm deeply introverted. I do like time by myself and I care about people. But my point is that I find I listen to podcasts or particularly if I go to events and have conferences,  there's so much noise

[00:20:01] DANIEL: And there is so much information just bombarding us day by day. I just listen to so many podcasts and then I find that my mind is full of all this stuff, but I haven't worked out how to actually reflect on it or apply it. And so because we care about making space and maybe it's because how I learn at least, we're going to have 30 second pauses in each episode where you can stop and think about that.

[00:20:21] DANIEL: What have we said? What's an aha moment or a key idea that stands out for you? And how can you do something about it? And because that's what you and I are really passionate about. I mean, the whole space makers methodology is about doing something with the information we hear, not. Learning, not being about what we know in our head, but how it transforms the way we live, our relationships, our communities.

[00:20:44] DANIEL: Right

[00:20:44] MATT: And, and on a personal note, like, like that's what I need as well. So again, like you, but probably like EBIT on steroids. I just find it so easy. I love collecting new information, as you know. Hmm. Like a, I read like a decent amount. I think I find it really stimulating, but in terms of translating that into practice.
[00:20:59] MATT: That's [00:21:00] where I am most likely to fall down. So yeah, I need that time, that set aside quarantine time to be able to think and reflect and actually implement. some plans. Yeah.

[00:21:10] DANIEL: Yeah. Great. So, so we're going to have that space in the podcast. So if you hear a 30 second space, we'll, we'll cue you in, but don't turn the podcast off.

[00:21:17] DANIEL: It's not finished. We're actually giving you some silence to practice silence, which is something we've lost the art of and to practice reflecting on how you'll apply it. And then at the end of each episode, we're going to give you a break. Productivity challenge, a practical activity that you can do to actually make space by reclaiming your attention muscles.

[00:21:37] DANIEL: And I'm quite excited about these. We'll put in some effort to make some fun and quirky. But also to make them practical and doable. So why don't we

[00:21:45] MATT: finish. And we're going to do them too,

[00:21:46] DANIEL: right? You're going to do them. I'm going to pretend

[00:21:48] MATT: I did. I'm going to do them. So think about a podcast. There's no accountability.

[00:21:52] MATT: I can say I did them. But no, yes, of course we're going to do them. Uh,

[00:21:55] DANIEL: and because we both need to improve the way in which we focus and concentrate. So yeah, let me give you some theory about applying information to practice and then let's throw out our first productivity challenge. Yeah. Sound okay? Yeah.

[00:22:08] DANIEL: All right. So, um, I was a physiotherapist. That was my very first career. I've done a few different careers. Crazy careers, but, uh, and I was a health coach. I did health coaching within that space. And so there's a lot of research about how to get people to do their exercises, you know, or take their medications, et cetera.

[00:22:23] DANIEL: So essentially you can say to someone, Hey, you need to, I don't know, do this many bicep reps. Oh, you don't do that for a physio.

[00:22:30] MATT: This, this many rotator cuff

[00:22:32] DANIEL: exercises on your shoulder, uh, and you know, do, I don't know, three reps of 10, do it twice a day. And people don't do it. And we know this, right? Uh, and so, you know, there's a lot of research in how do you shift people's physical behaviours.

[00:22:45] DANIEL: And I found that quite useful in terms of productivity as well. And so there's this bunch of research around what we call implementation intentions. Uh, we'll call them action triggers because it's easier to say, uh, Dan and, uh, Heath,  Chip, Chip, Dan and Chip, Heath. I got it the wrong way around. Yeah. Dan and Chip, Heath.

[00:23:05] MATT: Dan and Chip Heath. Apologies if they're watching. Exactly, yeah. He gave me action triggered because I can't say their names or implementation

[00:23:13] DANIEL: intentions. Uh, but. An action trigger is basically where you think about where and when you're going to do a particular activity, and you create the trigger in your mind about what that action looks like.

[00:23:25] DANIEL: And so then when that time or place or event occurs, your brain remembers, Oh, I was going to do that action. And therefore you're much more likely to do it assuming it's something you genuinely want to do. So an example in the research is you had a bunch of ladies who were at high risk of cancer and they would have a mammogram and then the doctor would say to them, okay, you have to come back and rebook this in a year.

[00:23:49] DANIEL: Here's my number. Well, historically there's pretty low follow through with that. But with an action trigger, if a doctor said, okay, here's the number, you have to come back in a [00:24:00] year. Pause for a moment and think about when and where you will make that phone call. And, and so, you know, uh, one lady might think, okay, uh, after Christmas is a good time, or, okay.

[00:24:12] DANIEL: My, my father passed away from cancer, so on his anniversary each year I'll make a phone call and book my next appointment, you know, because. preloaded and pre-thought about when you might do it. Well, then when that anniversary comes around, you're much more likely than to kickstart that habit that you want to do.

[00:24:29] DANIEL: And so we want to use action triggers throughout this podcast to help you start to retrain your focus muscles and to think about when and where you'll do it. And even to write it down. Again, the research says that if I give someone a physiotherapy exercise and I draw their own stick figures and I'm, I'm terrible at drawing, I'm absolutely shocking at stick figures, but yeah.

[00:24:47] DANIEL: If I draw a stick figure for someone and say, here's your exercise, uh, they're less likely to do it than if they draw their own stick figures and write down their own exercises, which was good for me because then they could draw bad stick figures and I still look good. Uh, so even if you get a, I don't know, a sticky note and write down, I'm going to do this.

[00:25:05] DANIEL: here and here, and then throw it in the bin straight away. The very fact that you wrote it down and have committed to a time and a place means you're likely to apply something from this podcast. And that's really a heartbeat behind the whole series. Yeah. That's what we want. Yeah. If you had those experiences in your kind of, in life.

[00:25:21] DANIEL: Have you used action triggers?

[00:25:22] MATT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've used a, probably like a combination of action, uh, triggers and habit stacking that will come back to you like some other time I expect. Um, we

[00:25:30] DANIEL: have to now, cause you mentioned it. Yeah.

[00:25:32] MATT: Yeah. So, uh, so, um, my take on habit stacking, uh, it's not like it was my idea.

[00:25:37] MATT: I think it came about in, you'll have to help me out here.

[00:25:39] DANIEL: James Clear's Atomic Habits. He didn't create it, but yeah, he made

[00:25:42] MATT: it popular. Yeah.

[00:25:44] DANIEL: He made everything popular. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's done well at that. So, um, I had flossing aspirations for a long time. I could never get around to it. Could never do it consistently.

[00:25:52] MATT: Read James Clear's book, Atomic Habits, where he talks about it, I think is one of the specific examples again, cause it's so cliched, um, and I'm at, and I managed to stack it. So I just did it every morning, implemented the habit. straight after I brush my teeth. So the cue, if you like, and something that I'm already doing, something that's already habitual, which is the, um, the tooth brushing obviously.

[00:26:11] MATT: And so adding something to that static on top was relatively simple and that's worked seriously. I like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's worked.

[00:26:17] DANIEL: And now you can stack like, you know, a lesson of reading an hour of like ancient Latin on top of your flossing

[00:26:22] MATT: habit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Small steps, but yeah. I'm not sure if that was one of the examples in clear book, but yeah, yeah, that was, that was.

[00:26:30] MATT: the bonus material that you got, if you, if you subscribe, um, yeah. So I'm a big believer. Yeah. Yeah. And again, like writing stuff down. I, I like you regularly write stuff down. So write down my, um, my, my intentions and that helps again, it's, it's far from perfect, but it helps. Yeah.

[00:26:43] DANIEL: Great. So if you're listening to this podcast and you're used to listening to podcasts all the time, you know, your life is full of information and you actually want to do something about it.

[00:26:51] DANIEL: Well, we would like you to commit to. So, um, we're going to be doing our first productivity challenge. Yes. Okay. So week one, uh, what we want you to do, and it's pretty  simple, we want you to go outside, just go outdoors in nature. It could be a park. It could be a, you know, to see a vista or a view or just, just somewhere in nature and just spend five minutes without a device.

[00:27:10] DANIEL: So no smartwatches, no phones, no tablets, obviously. And just be outdoors. Be quiet, um, and pay attention, start to pay attention to your surroundings. And by that I mean, maybe breathe slowly, uh, focus on what you're looking at. So what can you see? And then, and then move your attention around to, you know, what can you hear?

[00:27:31] DANIEL: Can you hear birdsong? Can you hear people talking? Can you hear, you know, the wind in the trees? Uh, maybe then move your attention to what can you smell? So just five minutes and start to think about the importance of attention. That you can choose what you focus on and that can shape your everyday experiences.

[00:27:49] DANIEL: Uh, and I reckon everyone can do that.

[00:27:50] MATT: Yeah, but I, again, I wouldn't want to undersell how challenging it can be because it sounds so simple. What's like five minutes, what's that, like 300 seconds if my maths is correct or 3, 000, I don't know. I need a,

[00:28:00] DANIEL: I need a fact check that later.

[00:28:03] MATT: It doesn't sound like very long, but I find it difficult.

[00:28:06] MATT: I find it difficult. I so rarely have done this and, uh, and every time I do, and I'll be doing it again super soon. It's, uh, it's probably harder than I think because I'm removing myself from all the easy to digest stimuli that I'm

[00:28:17] DANIEL: so used to. Yeah. And you're likely to realize that actually because I don't have silence and because I don't have attention, well then all these ideas and thoughts and emotions that potentially repress actually come up.

[00:28:27] DANIEL: So it is, it's not as simple as you never do this. Yeah. Now, when I say no phone, no devices, I don't mean just put it in your pocket on silent. I'd actually like you to put it away, maybe in your bags or completely out of kind of reach. Yeah. But, um, yeah, try to be tech free, uh, and have the space to actually think and then concentrate on when and where you're going to do this.

[00:28:46] DANIEL: That's the last bit. And that's the action trigger. Yeah. So, um, yeah. Are you going to do it? For example, I don't know on walking the dog when you walk in the dog or on Tuesday after work or at lunchtime after my meeting with the general manager. That's when I'm going to have this action trigger and you're right on a sticky note.

[00:29:02] DANIEL: I'd love you to pause in the 30 seconds. We'll have 30 seconds now just to reflect on how can you. Do this first habit. Even if you think it's kind of simple, or if it's not even relevant for you, the point is, I want you to start to do something after each of these episodes. And we will build on your concentration muscles, uh, practice by practice as we go through the 10 episodes.

[00:29:23] MATT: Okay. So Dan, just as a quick recap, what we're asking people to do is take five minutes over the coming week just to be outside without a device. And write it down, map out now when that time will be. I'll give you a moment of space now

[00:30:14] DANIEL: Okay, well done. You made it 30 seconds of silence. Hopefully you're still online and we haven't moved to the next thing But look, thank you so much for listening to our inaugural episode of the space makers Yeah, thanks guys. We are really excited about journeying with you for the next well nine weeks after this to help you think deeply about why you can't focus and how to live differently

[00:30:37] DANIEL: And we, we really hope that at the end of this, we hope this for ourselves, but we really hope that at the end of that, you'll be able to say, Oh, I can concentrate more. I've taken away some of the distracting inputs in my life. I've reframed some of my time and I've built new habits so that the time I have is enriching my life.

[00:30:55] DANIEL: It's enriching my relationships. I have better mental health. I'm more able to concentrate  and focus at work, uh, at home, and I'm more able to focus on the inner life, or at least to get benefits in some of those

[00:31:07] MATT: realms. Yeah, that's right. Noticeable benefits in some of those realms would be great.

[00:31:10] DANIEL: Yeah. Be amazing.

[00:31:12] DANIEL: Uh, and so we would love you to feedback, you know, what you're learning, tell us about your experiences, ask questions. We have an email address. Podcast at spacemakers. au, we'd really love to hear from you. Yeah, that'd be great. And look, because this is the first episode, we are giving away some books. So we would love you to leave a review on whatever podcast platform you listen to, you know, Apple, Spotify, et cetera.

[00:31:35] DANIEL: Uh, and if you leave a review and then email us at podcast at spacemakers.au. We will post you a book, obviously, give us your name and postal address. And Matt promises to stamp every envelope specifically for you. Isn't that right, Matt? Oh yeah, I've been working on that, been practicing. Yeah, you'll know if it was me or Matt who actually posted it to you based on how, uh, particularly cantered the return address is.

[00:31:59] MATT: But no,  seriously, look, if you're interested in Spacemaker, which is about Uh, busy leaders making space, uh, email us that, uh, we can also give you raising tech healthy humans if you'd prefer one or the other. Uh, so let us know what book you'd like, but leave a review, email us at [email protected].
 

[00:32:14] DANIEL: au First 20. Was that right? Oh, and the first 20. Yes. I should've said that. Phew, you just saved us from 400, books going out the door. No, but the first 20 people who do this and email us, we'll get a free book. So we're going to finish off, but, um, from our conversation, is there one thing that stands out to you?

[00:32:30] MATT: I really appreciate the reminder about that, um, about the action trigger. Thank you. And even just something as simple, like what spoke to me, something as simple as writing it down, even if you threw it away, like straight away, but just like the potency of that. Yeah. Nice. Yes. That's good. So something that is.

[00:32:45] MATT: Memorable, something that ideally it's got some emotion attached to it as well in terms of that trigger. Yeah. So that was, that was a good

[00:32:51] DANIEL: reminder. Yeah. Look, and I just really appreciate the reminder of the story that you shared. I know that you're better being a present with people than I am. Uh, and that's the problem with me being so tasky.

[00:33:00] DANIEL: And so again, you know, just the importance of being present and reflecting on my own thinking, you know, uh, metacognition, okay. I'm thinking about email and yet. I want to be thinking about my kids and, and just to sit in that space and to let it be and to accept it and to allow myself to wrestle with it.

[00:33:17] DANIEL: I want to do that more and more as part of my journey to having a focused life. So thank you so much for joining us for this first episode. Next week we are going to talk about neuropathy. Plasticity and how internet practice is remodelling our brain and what it means for us in practice. Yeah, that'd be great.

[00:33:33] DANIEL: Big thanks to Production Farm Studio who has produced this podcast. We also have a fantastic YouTube channel. We have great material including these podcasts and bonus episodes from our interviews. youtube.com/@daniel_sih

[00:33:53] DANIEL: But until next time make space. The Space Makers with Daniel C and Matt Bain. A special thank you to our amazing show sponsors. Bulk nutrients and St. Luke's Health, amazing companies from my beautiful home state of Tasmania, the island of creativity, and of course, space making. If you'd like to support this podcast, there are plenty of ways you can do so.

[00:34:18] DANIEL: Share an episode with a friend, leave a review to rate the podcast, or subscribe to our blog [email protected]

[00:34:29] DANIEL: Until next time, make space.