[00:00:00] Daniel: Um, Hey there again, Spacemakers. I'm Daniel Sih, your host, and I'm joined by the ever-wise Matt Bain. And we're the Spacemakers, helping you make space for a meaningful life by doing less, not more. This season, as you know, is about the fracturing of our attention and how to reclaim your focus. Here's a spoiler alert.

[00:00:22] Daniel: It involves less time on TikTok. Big thanks to our sponsor, Bulk Nutrients, who support your health, fitness, and wellbeing, proudly making quality supplements more affordable right here in Tasmania.

[00:00:37] Daniel: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:00:44] Daniel: Hey, welcome back, everyone. This is Daniel Sih from The Spacemakers, and we are talking about the fracturing of our attention and our brain. Why we can't concentrate, but more importantly, how we can regain our focus. I'm really excited. Today, we're going to talk with my good friend, Dr. [00:01:00] Julia Verdouw, who is a doctor of sociology, but will share her personal story about struggling with tinnitus and what she's learned about focusing and paying attention to what really matters through the challenges of having tinnitus.

[00:01:13] Daniel: that experience. And I like this quote from author Winifred Gallagher. She says, your life is the creation of what you focus on and what you don't. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about how we can actually shape our perception of the world by shaping our attention, how we can actually change what we focus on and therefore experience life beyond our circumstances.

[00:01:36] Daniel: So I'm excited about this episode. And as always, I'm here joined by my space making friend, uh, Matt Bain. Hey everyone. I'm Dan. Matt. We start each episode by feeding back on some of the practical challenges that we put forward in the last episode. Uh, can you remind our listeners what we were meant to do?

[00:01:56] Daniel: Or can you remember?

[00:01:57] MATT: Yeah. I can remember what I did and that's a strong [00:02:00] start, but what do we ask people to do? We ask people, we ask people to engage for one hour in a high quality leisure activity. And do you remember our rough definition of what constituted a high quality leisure activity?

[00:02:14] Daniel: Ah, well, for the sake of the audience.

[00:02:16] Daniel: No, I can't remember. Can you explain again?

[00:02:18] MATT: Okay, great. Great. Yeah. So, uh, for us, a high quality leisure activity was something that you weren't getting paid for. So it wasn't part of your regular gig or income stream. It involves some effort if you like. So some strain on, um, on your part. So it wasn't just that.

[00:02:32] MATT: The equivalent of vegging out, so it wasn't going to be something that was passive, or necessarily easy, but it was going to involve some effort of the will, but it was going to be ultimately rewarding. So it's going to bring you some degree of satisfaction, of joy, of pleasure.

[00:02:44] Daniel: Yeah, and we essentially, you know, contrasted that with low value

[00:02:47] Daniel: leisure activities and which, which are typically scrolling the internet and, uh, doing simple stuff online. Yeah. And trying to reclaim a bit of focus in our life by practicing something that matters. Yeah. That's right.

[00:02:58] MATT: And we asked people to do it unplugged.

[00:03:00] Daniel: You were going to read a book. Is that right?

[00:03:01] MATT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And for bonus points, you remember what kind of book I was going to read?

[00:03:06] Daniel: Yeah. Fiction. Yeah. Nice. How did you go reading the, the, uh, fiction book?

[00:03:09] MATT: Yeah. So, uh, so I, I, Followed your advice. So I had my action trick lined up. So I knew exactly when it was that I was going to be reading for an hour.

[00:03:15] MATT: So that really helped. But to be honest, that was the easy part. I found even when I had the time set aside, I literally sat down with my book. I knew which book was going to be. So again, that was pretty simple, but even initially there was just that little bit of resistance when it came to cracking open the, the, the work of fiction.

[00:03:31] MATT: Cause I knew it was going to be challenging compared, you know, it's an old, it was an old book. I knew it was going to be challenging. compared to going straight into non fiction. So that was interesting. Just like, so just that little bit of resistance, because I think I knew it was going to involve just a bit more strain and effort on my part.

[00:03:46] MATT: And honestly, I felt good afterwards.

[00:03:48] Daniel: Great. Nice. Uh, so mine was to play some guitar. Look, I occasionally tinker, but I almost never tinker just for fun. And, uh, it's very rare. So I was meant to do it on a Tuesday after [00:04:00] dinner when, you know, the kids were heading to sleep and I was going to play guitar for about half an hour to an hour.

[00:04:04] Daniel: I knew my fingers wouldn't quite last now, uh, and Tuesday came and then Tuesday went. And it was interesting because I remembered I need to do this, but life got busy and I couldn't do it. But because I had the action trigger, I did it later on, but it still worked in the sense of I remembered. Yes. And then I went and did it.

[00:04:20] Daniel: So look, uh, on the weekend, I played for about an hour actually, and it was, it was pretty special. It was actually a really meaningful experience. Yeah. I, um, cause I hardly ever play. So my, uh, my dad passed away. Last, oh, two weeks ago nearly? Yeah. And, so it's been a hard, hard month. And, um, And I played and I pulled out all these songs from way back from, I don't know, early 2000s, late 90s, where I used to play songs and I actually wrote a number of songs, which I haven't played for like 10 years.

[00:04:51] Daniel: And so I ended up playing some of those songs and they're all miserable, sad songs because it was a miserable, sad time of my life. And it was, it was really beautiful to, [00:05:00] to, um, just end it. Enter that space and remember that I've been through hard times and also experienced good times and uh, there’s something about music and the history of music and the feelings you get.

[00:05:13] Daniel: I don't know when you play music Yeah, and it was just really meaningful. And yeah, so that was like a high quality leisure activity.

[00:05:21] MATT: Wow, Dan. Yeah Can I ask just one question on that? Yeah. Were you solo, as in were you doing this by yourself or did you have company, family?

[00:05:28] Daniel: So I started playing by myself and some of the songs, you know, and I sing.

[00:05:32] Daniel: So I played these old songs, some that I'd written, some that I hadn't. And then my son came in and he actually thought this would be cool. So we started to jam with me. So we ended up playing stuff he knew, but he played the piano and I strung along and, and then my wife came and we actually did some singing.

[00:05:48] Daniel: It's like whole Von Trapp family thing. And, and look, we hardly ever sing and play together and none of us are very good, but it was actually a connecting experience. So that was like an added bonus. That's great. [00:06:00] So look, obviously that was a particular experience. I've played guitar in the past and it's not always been.

[00:06:04] Daniel: Wow. you know, life changing moments. Uh, you know, the beauty of, like we say, high value leisure activities is put yourself in a place where you have the chance to experience a better life and see what happens. Build on it.

[00:06:18] MATT: That's it. And we're also very keen to hear from you guys at home as to how you found the exercise too.

[00:06:24] Daniel: Okay, so this episode is really about this idea that we can curate what we pay attention to and the power of the mind to shape our perception of the world. It's really powerful. Okay, so I, I remember reading a book by Winifred Gallagher and, uh, the book's called Wrapped and there's this quote that stood out to me.

[00:06:43] Daniel: She said, your life is the creation of what you focus on and what you don't. And, you know, essentially her argument is. What we actually give attention to, what we pay attention to with our life and our mind can literally shape our experience of the world around us. And that's a very powerful idea when we're talking about [00:07:00] attention.

[00:07:00] Daniel: And I'm very, very excited to have my good friend, Dr. Julia Verdouw. Welcome Julia.

[00:07:06] Julia: Thanks, Daniel. Great to be here.

[00:07:08] Daniel: Dr. Verdouw is a doctor of sociology. You have worked in lots of different fields. Your dissertation, is that what you call them?

[00:07:16] Julia: Yeah. PhD.

[00:07:17] Daniel: PhD. Yeah. Your PhD was about the meaning of money, which is fascinating and the way in which people interpret money.

[00:07:23] Daniel: Uh, but since then you've worked, uh, in housing research and now you work in education research and you're a lecturer as well.

[00:07:29] Julia: Yes.

[00:07:30] Daniel: Yeah. So you've got heaps of experience, but I want to actually hear about your personal story of struggling with tinnitus and what it says about paying attention. So I read your early manuscript for a book that you've written, soon to be published, called The Valley of the Shadow, and it's a collection of poems written after your husband passed away from a heart attack two years ago.

[00:07:50] Daniel: The poetry is raw, and it's beautiful, and it's about grief, but also about joy, and about finding life in that, in that, particularly the first year. [00:08:00] Uh, and each poem has some prose or an explanation of the poetry afterwards. And so I read one of your poems and the prose about tinnitus and it was like, wow, that's, that speaks volumes into what it might look like to focus our mind and shape our attention.

[00:08:16] Daniel: Uh, so I would love if you don't mind reading this out and because it's yet to be published, this is, this is the first time you'll have anyone hear it.

[00:08:24] Julia: Absolutely. Thanks. Thanks, Dan. So, I have tinnitus. Tinnitus is a high pitched noise in my head that sometimes I can hear over my car engine. It can be very distressing and it worsens in times of stress like acute grief.

[00:08:42] Julia: It's like an unwanted, ever present distraction. But over time tinnitus has taught me in a very visceral way that what I listen for and what I choose to perceive is exactly what I'll hear. It's like the noise of the attention economy in its whitewashed politics, social media, religious [00:09:00] debates, and endless scrolling, liking, and buying.

[00:09:02] Julia: The high pitched irritant of tinnitus demands to be heard in my head above all else. It grabs perpetually from my attention. It doesn't have to be like this. To habituate, with tinnitus is to slowly develop the habit pattern of hearing life outside of its incessant high pitched demand to unlearn the siren song of its presence.

[00:09:23] Julia: In doing so, I am slowly learning to first hear the wind, the car engine, the song, and the sea over and above the noises of the inside my head. Habituation takes noticing. It takes practicing attunement to the softer and far less demanding presence of life all around me.

[00:09:44] Daniel: Beautiful words. Thanks for writing them and speaking them out.

[00:09:48] Julia: Uh, so what is tinnitus? Tinnitus is a, it's a high, pitched noise or a ringing, uh, inside your head. It can be like, not just a ringing, it can be a whooshing or a [00:10:00] roaring sound. It's, it can be different for different people. Sometimes for me, it's, it feels a bit like, uh, a tap's turned on and it's like a, a washing kind of sound, but the constant sound for me in my head is that it's a high ringing, high ringing noise.

[00:10:13] Daniel: So does it come and go or like, could you hear it now, for example?

[00:10:17] Julia: Yes. Absolutely. It doesn't come and go. I think that the definition of tinnitus is that you have a ringing or a loud noise in your head that, um, it lasts for more than six months. So you kind of have had to have it, have it for six months for it to be kind of called or named tinnitus.

[00:10:33] Julia: Tinnitus. But yeah, for me, one day that high pitched noise came and it never went.

[00:10:38] Daniel: Okay. So that's a very significant challenge.

[00:10:41] Julia: It is. And one of the things about tinnitus is that it's a phantom, called a phantom sound, in that no one else can hear it.

[00:10:48] Daniel: Wow. I mean, that, do many of the people you work with and colleagues know that you have tinnitus then?

[00:10:52] Julia: No, it's not something I talk about.

[00:10:54] Daniel: You don't have like a badge that says I have tinnitus. The reason I'm being distracted right now and [00:11:00] glazing over is because I can't hear you. Yeah, so that's hard, right? So it's a very personal challenge then, I imagine.

[00:11:06] Julia: Yes,

[00:11:06] Daniel: yeah, absolutely. So tell me about, I mean, you've got this beautiful line here.

[00:11:11] Daniel: that habituation takes noticing. So habituation sounds like managing tinnitus because it can't be cured, at least in your case. Is that correct?

[00:11:19] Julia: No, there are different kinds of tinnitus. So, um, people have it for different reasons. It's, it's symptomatic of something going on. Usually, it's not a disease in and of itself.

[00:11:28] Julia: It's often symptomatic of something else. So, it can be, um, things like autoimmune disease or, um, ear damage. If you're a musician, that's probably a little bit more common than the rest of the population perhaps. Yeah, there's a, there's a number of different things that it can be caused by.

[00:11:43] Daniel: But you haven't been offered a treatment.

[00:11:44] Daniel: So this is something that you need to work out how to live with as opposed to fix. That's right. Is that correct?

[00:11:49] Julia: Because for most people, there's no

[00:11:50] Daniel: cure.

[00:11:51] Julia: Yeah. Okay. So, which is, yeah. you know, a little bit distressing in and of itself when you have this high pitch noise and you think I cannot live with this high pitch noise, like that needs to go away.

[00:11:59] Julia: And [00:12:00] that actually one of the things that works and is most effective for tinnitus sufferers is what's called tinnitus retraining therapy or TRT. And tinnitus retraining therapy is about, it's a combination of counselling and sound therapy. So the counselling side of it is around retraining your mind to unhear the tinnitus.

[00:12:24] Daniel: Well, that makes sense. Cause I mean, in our last episode, Matt and I talked about neuroplasticity and that what you do on a regular habitual basis increases the pathways in your brain. And, and so that makes sense if you're constantly shaping your attention and putting your focus on something which is distressing and a constant noise, well, then that will, you increase and emphasize the significance of that in your life.

[00:12:45] Daniel: Yes, that's right. So, so that's hard and, and practically maybe just one or two examples of how that negatively affected you at that time.

[00:12:54] Julia: Uh, well, yes, it affected me in a number of different ways and across [00:13:00] time. So, first of all, um, the first, you know, couple of months in particular were really difficult because it was just getting used to hearing that sound.

[00:13:10] Julia: So, uh, it would just constantly draw attention to itself because I was constantly drawing attention to it, thinking, oh no, oh no, it's, you know, it's not going away. It's still not going away. The next morning, it's still not going away. And actually, for a while, it did dominate. It dominated my days. And I found it very hard to think of anything else.

[00:13:30] Julia: anything else. The other thing with tinnitus is that it, um, it worsens in times of stress. So there have been periods of time like when Michael passed away that it really worsened. And so it felt like it was louder. And in that time too, I've had to, had to really work hard to not let it dominate my days.

[00:13:49] Daniel: So we're talking about attention and how you can actually shape your attention. What have you done to help you walk through this challenge?

[00:13:56] Julia: So, um, on the back door of my chiropractor's [00:14:00] offices, there's a sign as you walk out the door that says, where your attention goes, there your energy flows. Something like that.

[00:14:08] Julia: It's really a bit like, naff. But, um, having tinnitus has really given me a way of understanding that in a really embodied way. So the most direct work that I've done around tinnitus and retraining my own thought patterns around it has been to just the kind of almost moment by moment work of understanding and being conscious of my thoughts, particularly the negative thought patterns and the anxiety and being really aware of what that does to me and how it raises my anxiety.

[00:14:41] Julia: And even for me doing the research around knowing that you can do retraining therapy, knowing that you can unlearn to hear, was a positive, hopeful thing for me.

[00:14:51] Daniel: Can you give me an example of what do you say to yourself? Or what, what are you actually doing inside of your head?

[00:14:55] Julia: Yeah.

[00:14:56] Daniel: To retrain your story and to reinterpret this for yourself to [00:15:00] accept it.

[00:15:00] Julia: So particularly it's in the quiet, quiet at times when you, when it's just sort of blaring and your mind is trying to take you there to that noise the whole time, um, I, I will often think things like, um, just get back. Just get back to what you're doing. Focus on what you're doing.

[00:15:19] Daniel: Okay. So you're concentrating on the task or, or the relationships or the things that matter.

[00:15:24] Daniel: Yeah. And that is helping you. Make the noise, take a back seat.

[00:15:27] Julia: That's right. There is a life going on all around me and I just need to focus on that. I just need to pay attention to what it is that I want my life to be about, to learn to be grateful for the things that I have, to learn to see beauty, um, in my life.

[00:15:42] Julia: What is around me in what I'm doing, what I want to do, the meaningful things that, um, my life holds. You know, one of the things that I often try and do is listen for things outside of my high pitched noise, like birds or even the sounds of the traffic or the sounds of other things going on. [00:16:00] Or I'll put a bit of music on to help mask it sometimes.

[00:16:03] Julia: That works too.

[00:16:04] Daniel: Wow. So instead of it being about me and what I see in here, Yeah. Yeah. Yup. Paying attention outside of yourself and also to the things that matter to you. The reason I felt this was such a helpful, powerful conversation for all of us isn't just because we're going to suffer from tinnitus, but I think the same is so true for all of us.

[00:16:24] Daniel: I mean, I mentioned my father passed away a few weeks ago and, you know, my mind is like I've just been grieving and I've had anger and sadness and loss and disappointment, you know, and a whole lot of feelings and emotions all at the same time. And, but I'd just been for a bike ride and I just bought a Valhalla ice cream, choc chip, you know, it's just beautiful, peppermint choc chip, and there was this beautiful vista around me and I was in a, a gorgeous place.

[00:16:50] Daniel: And so I just remember thinking, okay, I can choose what I pay attention to in this moment. And so I said, okay, I won't pay attention to my grief right now. Not repressing [00:17:00] it. I'm just saying, this is not the moment. And I just enjoyed the ice cream. And it was a really, beautiful moment. Uh, and the funny thing is, as I did that, I still felt sad.

[00:17:13] Daniel: Like the emotions were in me and I, there was a sadness as I was practicing thankfulness, but it changed my day because I chose to pay attention to what I needed to pay attention to and focus outside of myself and my own grief and experience. Uh, so I think it's relevant. for just managing our life, not just tinnitus.

[00:17:34] Daniel: Would that be fair to say?

[00:17:35] Julia: Yes, absolutely. I think tinnitus has taught me a great deal about my own life and about the stories that I tell myself. You know, a good example is exactly what you've just said. And for me, two years ago, my husband died suddenly. It was, you know, a huge shock to me and my girls.

[00:17:55] Julia: There are things that happen to you and then the stories that you can write about it. And I think what [00:18:00] Tinnitus has done has helped me with some of those stories that, um, to recognize when I'm writing a story that doesn't have to be written in my life.

[00:18:07] Daniel: Can you give me an example of that?

[00:18:09] Julia: Yeah. So, so I remember the night Michael died, um, he died, was pronounced dead at around clock at night.

[00:18:18] Julia: And I remember going to bed, you know, a couple of hours later, didn't sleep a wink that night, as you can probably imagine. But one of the thoughts in the middle of the night that, you know, of all the chaotic and numb thoughts that were going on for me, um, there was a, there was a thought that just stood out really clear as day and it went something like this.

[00:18:36] Julia: Um, you know, Michael was the outgoing, fun, energetic, encouraging, just lovely, interesting person, in, in your relationship. No one's going to want to hang out with you anymore. I remember thinking that thought and just going, that, that's just ridiculous. But that thought stuck with me. Like, [00:19:00] it just, needled its way in and stayed.

[00:19:04] Julia: And interestingly, talking to other women who have lost their person, it's not, I'm not alone in that thought. That's a, that's a, that's a thing. But I, my journey with tinnitus had kind of given me a language for thinking about the stories that we write for ourselves. And I realized pretty early on that that was a story I could write for myself into reality.

[00:19:28] Julia: if I let it because, you know, losing a person, there's all sorts of loneliness and, and being alone in new ways that you have to get used to. And you can actually write that story in pen pretty quickly for yourself. So, um, so I realized that I needed to change that story. After a few weeks, one of the ways that I decided I would do that was to actually speak that story out loud.

[00:19:51] Julia: to some friends. Yep. And often we're scared to do that because they sound stupid. Yeah. So I sat down

 [00:19:56] Daniel: That’s the point though, isn't it?

[00:19:58] Julia: Yeah, that's right. But I sat down and I [00:20:00] said, I said that sentence to my friends because it was still a fear that I had. And it was just a couple of close friends. And, I felt ridiculous as I said it because it's like, it sounds even more ridiculous saying it out loud to other people.

[00:20:13] Julia: Um, but I knew that actually saying it out loud and having other people tell me the story I needed to hear was really important.

[00:20:21] Daniel: So what do you believe now then?

[00:20:23] Julia: Well, my friends just straight away said what I know in my heart of hearts, but, and what I needed to hear from someone else was, yes, he was all those things, but you're all, you know, you're a bunch of other things and we love you and we're not going to leave you alone.

[00:20:36] Julia: And I think sometimes the stories we tell ourselves and the fears that actually sit underneath them come from that existential place of, of the fears we have about being left alone or how you know, when life dramatically changes what that's going to look like. But tinnitus has been a really visceral, embodied way of realizing that I can change that story.

[00:20:56] Julia: I can unlearn to hear something, actually a [00:21:00] real sound in my head. I can unlearn to hear that. And I can also unlearn stories that I tell myself.

[00:21:05] Daniel: So, in some ways, while you experienced tinnitus a few years before Mick passed away, isn't it? It's actually quite beautiful, the idea that what you learned about attention and focus and shaping your worldview, your story, and your experience in the way that matched the person you wanted to be and the life you wanted to live, how it actually in some ways prepared you for tinnitus.

[00:21:27] Daniel: The bigger noise that was coming away.

[00:21:30] Julia: Yep, it did. It did. Um, there's one, one more little thing that I'd like to say if I can. Well, just thinking about the fact that tinnitus has helped prepare me for some of the, the things that have happened since and some of the difficulties and challenges of rewriting some of those stories for myself.

[00:21:46] Julia: Before I, I got tinnitus, I was someone who had been practicing meditation and prayers. I'm a person of faith. So for me, uh, I'd been learning to sit in silence and [00:22:00] meditate. And for me, that looks like just sitting in the presence of God and, um, just sitting in that relationship, not praying, not saying anything, not having any expectations, just sitting in silence.

[00:22:11] Julia: And I'd been doing that for a number of years before. I got tinnitus. And actually it was really big part of retraining for me because it's kind of counterintuitive to think that I would want to sit in silence. But when we can learn to sit in silence and to sit with ourselves, with the distractions, with the high pitched noise, with, uh, the things that we don't like about ourselves, the things that are chaotic inside of us.

[00:22:39] Julia: the things that we want to run away from, the things that life is throwing, trying to throw at us. When we can sit with those things in stillness and silence and be at peace with those things, I think we can go into the world and into our daily lives with an ability. to just to approach those things in a lot healthier way.

[00:22:59] Daniel: Beautiful [00:23:00] paradox that the practice of silence and stillness and prayer and meditation actually prepared you for the noise. Yeah. And that it was actually part of the retraining process. Uh, we will again in a future episode, talk about stillness and silence because it's called the space makers and the importance of space for understanding the inner life, your values, your purpose, which is actually important for shaping your attention around what matters most.

[00:23:29] Daniel: Hey Jules, thank you so much for being on our show. I knew this would be a great conversation and I knew we would learn a lot from you. So thank you. And I'm sure that your experience will also help our listeners to reflect on the value of the Winifred Gallagher quote, that your life is the creation of what you focus on and what you don't.

[00:23:46] Daniel: And I think your story bothers that.

[00:23:49] Julia: Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.

[00:23:58] Daniel: Oh, wow. We talked about lots, Matt. What were your impressions or thoughts from [00:24:00] what Jules said?

[00:24:00] MATT: Yeah, very, very grateful. I hadn't heard most of that story. One big takeaway for me, getting back to our theme of attention, is that her story, I think, points out that when it comes to directing your attention towards something, so curating it, doing it out of almost pragmatic reasons.

[00:24:19] MATT: So just trying to avoid say some pain or some suffering or some boredom, just trying to like turn some unpleasant feelings down. In the long run, that won't be enough. What I heard her say is that the main motivation, the why, if you like, the greater why behind where she directed her attention was values based.

[00:24:36] MATT: And that seemed to really inform where and how she directed her attention.

[00:24:41] Daniel: So, we need to get practical and we need to help us actually find ways to do stuff about this.

[00:24:46] MATT: So, yeah. So, Jules mentioned a couple of times there, um, getting clear on our own thinking with friends and the importance of broader community and also the value of family and helping raise a family.

[00:24:57] MATT: So, the challenge for this week is [00:25:00] that we'd like you to, uh, select three important people, three important people in your life, who you have good, meaningful relationships with, and who you know would value and benefit you giving them a bit more attention. So informed attention. So I would like you to again, think of three people and Come up with a way to make them feel attended to and valued over the course of the week.

[00:25:28] MATT: So yeah, treat them as the individuals that they are. Mm.

[00:25:31] Daniel: Yeah. And it's very powerful, but write people's names down and then just give undue attention to them this week more than you would normally do. Yeah, it's a beautiful opportunity. You know, even if you can't think of three people, even if you know, one or two, but just don't stalk them.

[00:25:43] Daniel: That would be creepy. But hey, every day I'm giving you a box of chocolates and some flowers.

[00:25:48] MATT: Yeah, you want to do it in a way that they're actually going to appreciate and value you. That's probably the criteria.

[00:25:51] Daniel: Yeah, make sure you know them. Uh, otherwise it would be weird. But no, seriously, write down three names, work out what might it look like for them to feel like [00:26:00] I've cared for them and given them appropriate attention.

[00:26:03] Daniel: And then. Do it. Yes. Yeah. Do something. Text them. Uh, give them a phone call. Have coffee. Uh, maybe buy flowers. Do you know what I mean? Like, um, shout them out to a beer. Like, whatever it takes. It's a great way to start to embed your values in a fresh way. Sounds good. Hey, so next week, I'm really excited.

[00:26:23] Daniel: We are going to talk about the science of attention. We're going to talk about the bottom up and top down attentional systems and how we can retrain our attentional muscles. And we're going to introduce the framework that we've been working towards, which is about how can you actually make space and put into practice changes

[00:26:44] Daniel: to live your best life and to focus on what really matters. So that comes next week. I'm excited and hopefully you'll join us then. Yeah. Until next time, make space.

[00:26:57] Daniel: The Space Makers with Daniel Sih [00:27:00] and Matt Bain.

[00:27:01] Daniel: A special thanks to our sponsor, Bulk Nutrients. Proudly making quality supplements more affordable right here in Tasmania.

[00:27:09] Daniel: You can enjoy a 5 percent discount on protein powders and health supplements at bulknutrients.com.au. Just enter the coupon code SPACEMAKERS for a discount on orders over $45.

[00:27:23] Daniel: If you'd like to support this podcast, there are plenty of ways you can do so. Share an episode with a friend, leave a review, or subscribe to our blog post at spacemakers.au. Until next time, make space.